bro come on now… shamans have tools to deal with basically everything a paladin can do, except for the bubble (and even then you just heal when they bubble to heal lol, so that’s a soft counter).
shaman can purge pala buffs.
shaman can interrupt pala heals.
shaman can burst more than pala, both in melee and at range.
shaman gets maelstrom, paladin cannot dispel that.
shaman can grounding totem pala HoJ.
am i forgetting something?
what exactly does pala have that hard counters shaman?
if his HoJ hits then yeah he might have a chance, but a good shaman will not allow that.
i guess maybe repentance + HoJ combo, but that’s ret only, and even so, 1/2 can be grounded… both if the paladin is dumb enough, which is highly likely.
hard no.
paladin is way better in group fights. its just that your ret heroes refuse to play their role.
how many times must we say “don’t play ret pala like you play warrior, use your support. be defensive” before it sinks in?
you are playing your support role like a shaman does (which is offensively, on the front line (in case of enhance))
seriously, pala is amazing in group fights IF YOU PLAY DEFENSIVELY, and yeah so are shamans (OFFENSIVELY), but paladins are flat out better (DEFENSIVELY) because they can bubble themselves and others to keep supporting even if the enemy tries to deal with them.
shaman is offensive support, pretty much all they do for their teammates in pvp is provide wf totem OR grounding totem, tremor totem and/or decoy (if runed) and poison or disease cleansing, and purge.
that’s it. that’s their entire support kit.
once you decide to kill them, they flat out die provided you counter their efforts and not just mash your high dps ability button… you need to address what the shaman is actually doing to shut him down (weird concept right?).
if he is hitting you with melee attacks that means he is stacking maelstroms, so mortal strike him, cc him or dispel him.
if he is throwing down totems, target them and wand them.
if he is purging you, downrank buff spells (and spam them) and he will oom before you do.
and if all of that don’t work, ol’ reliable: STUN HIM TO DEATH works provided you aren’t dumb enough to try and do that while his decoy is up, you need to dispel it first and then open the barrage of stuns.
paladins have a variety of auras and blessings, they even have a tremor totem aura, and they can throw hard stuns from range (including repentance which is basically a ranged sap unaffected by any stun resistance/cleansing) bubble heals.
try to play your ret as a backline support (defend your casters) instead of derping into the frontline with an aggressive bubble to dump 1 crusader strike and divine storm before you flop dead like a fish.
the only classes with the ability to shut down paladin’s support is shamans and priests, and honestly, if those aren’t your top priority to kill (or CC) in team fights, that’s why you lose.
you know what happens the vast majority of the time when i face an alliance hunter, whether its on my shaman or my priest?
serpent (note: NOT viper) sting.
gives me a chuckle every time.
you got the perfect tool to utterly gimp my ability to play, and you decide not to use it.
kekw.
If you are just jumping into the enemy frontline as a Ret trying to imitate a Warrior and then get dumpstered on you have no right to complain. And sadly this is something most paladins instantly do in BGs. Instant bubble, do fudge all for damage, get wrecked after 12 seconds.
Use Sacrifice to prevent CCs, cleanse your team, bait some counterspells/interrupts with your heals, throw freedom on warriors or slowed/rooted allies, BoP your healers, Repent/Stun enemy healers. If you only want to do burst damage and deliver killing blows - reroll to another class.
You are all right, pal play like Warrior, and thats the main prob that we have in alliance.
So we have bg where we have a lot of sham who play more defensiv that pal.
I think sham have to much utility, many tools and a bg with 6,7 sham who can purge, bring insane burst with WF for cac, bring support heal with the 3 spec, clearly pal have bubul but what is a bubul for a team fight ?
Ret dont heal and cant cause to easy to interupt, i dont say that a ret is not strong in 1vs1 i just say that ret in team fight is < sham.
But people must understand that if in every games there are more than 5 shams its not cause sham are JUST fun to play….
Because paladin has a huge toolkit to do the support. Shaman has the toolkit to kill and do a little support.
I’ve explained in another post how paladins should give support.
One thing I missed out on saying is that BoP van also be used on a mage, lock or any other caster so they can go on a rampage VS any melee and be untouched.
Now is that support or is it support? Can a shaman make healers and ranged DPS immune to physical damage?
And ppl trying to kite some enemies but keep being slowed can get BoF or just a cleanse, so they can get away. Is that support??
A healer being stunned by a rogue, bam, HoJ on the rogue and the healer is free to heal again. Is that support?
You clearly have NO idea about the early ideas of paladin is. You clearly don’t understand what makes a paladin a support class.
Try to search up the early stuff blizzard wrote about paladins, they clearly meant paladins to be supportive to the team.
Shamans can purge enemies and paladin can cleanse allies, one is offensive and the other more defensive.
Paladins can also be excellent defenders of bases in AB.
“little support”
WF, Grounding, Decoy/Freedom, Tremor, Cleansing Totems, Purge, Slows, MSW instant free heals.
That isn’t little at all, especially if most of these have a CD of less than a minute, you are being delusional.
enhance shaman enters the room, you were saying?
Can a paladin delete your support buffs off your screen by pressing 1 button?
This is such a useless statement, support gotta be consistent, paladin has multiple 1min+ CDs, which makes them ineffective as a support. Shaman got multiple CDs that are 1min or LESS. And don’t get me started on the prankster heals of HL and FoL.
Can thanks to a 5min CD, where they spend 4% of the CD in a bubble and piss off people, the remaining 96% they are useless. Good one, rogues, hunters, mages, priests and shamans can defend better than a paladin that has to rely on a bubble.
i dunno if u ever played as ele against a ret… if u did prolly it was a negative skill level player, like the vast majority of ally players r… any retardin with 50% working brain cells will make sure they stun u, if u manage to grounding HoJ its a rare mistake from them (happened once in 30+ fights against the same player i’ve been fighting), after that they will just BoF and dispell ur slows on them and never let u create a gap… and as i said if u play SR u r dead within stun duration, if u r playing WoE u will go oom first… go try it out, find the rare ally retardin with positive skill level and then u can see
Most of these are fluff. Tremor totem has 1 hp. Cleansing has same amount of hp and the pulsing is too long. Purge is a good one, slows are alright but can be dispelled. Grounding and WF is good. Decoy has 1 hp and can be dispelled.
Can easily be shut down due to roots slows. Decoy can be easily dispelled.
No but it can dispell a huge amount of damage done by any dot class.
It is consistent with cleanse and heals, with cleanse being insanely important to let your teammates run freely.
How long does the BGs last, 15 min? That’s 3 times bubble which is really really good.
But hey, i agree with you, all those support spells suck if they are not used. Like most paladins don’t use…
Yet you gotta waste time/GCDs to deal with totems, GCDs that couldve been used on players instead.
Tremor/Cleansing totems pulse on drop and then in intervals, it is the initial drop that is huge value, value you can’t deny.
only by a priest as an offensive dispel on alliance side, which there are not many of, unlike the masses of shaman on horde.
at the cost of running oom and not being able to cast other supportive actions, good one, an issue shamans don’t have to face at all.
FoL heals for barely anything, and HL costs toomuch. It is just a fact that both of em blow. Try using either, just to notice that you delay anyone from dying, compared to shamans just full healing themselves+allies as ele/enhance.
Be real, it’s twice per BG at the very best, and horde clown whine about how “good” a 5min cd is, when most of their shaman toolkit is clearly superior.
Shamans and horde racials will get nerfed, it’s just a matter of time.
keep in mind the shaman can only have 1 totem of each element up.
they cannot do grounding and wf, cannot decoy and tremor and cannot disease and poison cleanse - all at the same time.
you are repeatedly trying to give people the impression that they can every time you complain about shaman, and it grinds my gears every time.
its either grounding or wf.
its either decoy or tremor. (and decoy has 20 sec CD).
its either disease cleansing or poison cleansing.
they have a 5 second tickrate, and are group-only, you will never cleanse poisons off someone who is being assaulted by a rogue with poison cleansing totem, they stack it thrice as fast as the totem can cleanse 1/5 stack.
tremor totem is a 50/50 gamble whether it works at all. a bad tick = no fear cleanse.
a good shaman can juggle (twist) these an gain use of both, but the vast majority of shamans can’t even be bothered to use their totems, and if they do, totem twisting is omega mana intense to the point where they will sacrifice their ability to actually do damage if they do, although that is simply what the smart move is sometimes, and you don’t see shamans complaining that they have to sacrifice their dps output for more totem support - because its fairly understood that in order to do one, you have to give up on the other.
be happy the vast majority of shamans are fotm rerollers who never even heard the word “twisting” before.
Purge - yes.
Slows (plural) - yeah they can slow at the cost of their interrupt or flame shock. frost shock is a last resort shock you only use to make distance or prevent your target from running away, and it can be cleansed (by your class), and both shaman slows have cooldowns.
6 seconds on frost shock and earthbind has a whopping 30 seconds cooldown.
MSW heals - bro that means they have to sacrifice damage output, so if they heal they can’t kill. MSW heals is a self-cast the vast majority of the time, or an emergency heal on others.
it’s not a lot either.
you throwing “slow” in there to pad the utility a shaman can do does not make it “more support”.
slowing someone is generally not considered “supporting”.
every class has a slow… warrior has hamstring for example, and they can spam it… does that mean warrior is utility?.
hunters can slow an entire battlefield worth of enemies, repeatedly, from range… does that make hunter utility?
No, don’t be silly… you’re just mad paladin is one of the only classes who can’t slow.
stun him.
sheep him.
repentance him.
time your cast properly and fear him.
silence him (a good silence shuts down his entire arsenal, including all his totems and healing spells - everything a shaman has, except flame shock, frost shock and lava burst are nature school).
yadda yadda you know exactly what people are going to say here…
and if doing the obvious is too hard for you dent players, just use rank 1 buffs to oom the shaman as he spampurges you.
he will be oom in 5-6 casts, and god forbid he has to use some of his mana for shocks and totems - he will never be able to spampurge you for any meaningful amount of time, unless its literally all he does.
yes, you can delete our offensive support DEBUFFS with the click of a button (such as the slows you like to complain about).
you can also nullify a shadowpriests impact on a fight almost entirely by removing all their dots. - defensive support.
it is consistent. the reason your BoF and BoP are 1 minute is because you get them for free (no rune needed) and you have a bunch of support besides those, such as cleanse, auras and even horn of lordaeron (if you guys could be bothered using them).
not to mention you got at least 4 “hard” blessings that last 15 minutes with no cooldown.
oh, and seals… you got a lot of pvp-specific seals… but hey, you’re tunnel visioning on the dps seals, and i guess that’s shaman’s fault too.
your faction is running around with the following auras: Shadow Resistance Aura, Fire Resistance Aura, Frost Resistance Aura, Concentration Aura, Retribution Aura, Devotion Aura, Sanctity aura.
-all which are raidwide, can be stacked with each other and cannot be purged/dispelled.
60 fire resistance.
60 frost resistance.
60 shadow resistance.
35% less spell pushback.
20 holy damage when hit (particularly effective against all dual wielders).
735 armor.
on top of all these UNDISPELLABLE AURAS your faction is running around with the following blessings:
Might: 115 more AP than we do. (and a bunch of str/agi if you run horn)
Wisdom: 33 more mp5 than we do.
Light: 210 more healing from holy light and 60 from flash. (both priest and pala benefits).
Sanctuary: flat 19 damage reduction. 28 damage done every block.
Kings: 10% stats.
all which you can easily rebuff on whole groups at a time, and these are the untalented values, and on top of that the book they put in the game gives them all 100% increased duration and 50% less mana cost.
i was considering specifically neglecting to mention Blessing of Kings, because i know the first thing you’re gonna say is “HuNtEr” which no, not in pvp…
honestly, all these things combined makes it look really absurd just how much support paladins have.
oh and on top of all that you got BoF and BoP.
maybe you guys should learn to organize your blessings and auras, because when i pvp and i check your buffs, all i see is retribution aura and devotion aura… MAYBE concentration… i never see the resistance auras, which is omegakek… do you have any idea how much these auras annoy warlocks, mages and priests? even to a degree ele shamans.
flat out wrong. cry harder. paladins are the best flag defenders in the game.
the shaman has to waste an equal amount of time/GCD to cast them, GCD’s that could’ve been used on players instead.
tremor ticking instantly is actually detrimental in a scenario where the shaman is feared.
posion cleansing ticking on cast is good yes.
sucks to suck. tell your priests to do their job.
DUDE SHAMAN RUNS OOM WHEN HE PURGES TOO, LMAO STOP LYING.
put on healing gear, spec holy.
oh, and blessing of light.
aww…
a paladin complaining about his heals being expensive is omegakek btw. paladins (the healing spec) is widely known for being the best healers in the game because they never oom.
which in your world probably means you never use them.
also blessing of light maybe.
you as a ret pala is not supposed to keep people from dying, that’s the healers job. all you can do is hope to delay the death of a teammate - this is the same for shamans that are not resto.
and no, ele cannot heal, what are you on about? they don’t have maelstrom… if they hardcast heals and you aren’t interrupting them: Skill issue.
enhancement shaman has to be in melee, actively fighting to build maelstroms, the second he is, he is living on borrowed time. if he heals anyone but himself he will die, assuming equal numbers on both sides… also if he spends maelstroms for heals that means he is sacrificing offense for healing.
stop acting like maelstrom heals have 0 downsides.
Totems > Auras + Blessings (Totems are extremely versatile, have most buffs that blessings bring aswell available, only Aura that is not a simple “more of X stat” is concentration and it’s strong, Grounding Totem more skill based but potentially stronger. (Completely negating high DMG spells is better than trying to out heal them))
In direct comparison the Paladin is just weaker. This attempt to undersell the Shaman and focus on the disruptive Bubble is simply not helping - I know the lizard brain hates the “Immune” message popping up and dying against an uncounter able threat - but other than the occasional (again, 5min CD) AB Flag defense it’s not much in comparison.
I’d gladly trade Bubble for a 30s CD Gap closer
I agree with all but the trade buble-> gap closer.
Why every paladin keeps thinking that we have to loose the buble to get smthing… buble is just a weak 5 min cd, is no issue to ahve it. Wanna add a 50% dmg debuff to it in exchange for some more usefull spell? Ok with it… but honestly I thin kthe issue here is not having pala buffed, but shamans nerfed. Paladins are ok in pvp atm, they burst alot, have buble and some good utility, but NO gap closer, easly go OOM (oom pala=dead pala), easy to purge and heal for nothing (except holy). Every class can counter a pala, tho in avg fights u will find avg skilled players that have no idea how to counter/kite a pala. Instead shamans are simply OP compared than any1 else. No matter if u are a low or high skilled player, if u play shaman u gonna win 80% - 90% of the times. Even shaman vs pally is a shaman win as long as the pally does not have buble ready AND stun ready. stun resist and just buble? Then it’s just 50/50 chance for both…
Ignore paladins, nerf shamans. and nerf shaman version of pala spels, so we can go back to ally (slightly) best pve and horde best pvp (they would still have their OP racials…).
P.S. to all horde players reading this: add any mov speed enchant to ur boots and when u see a pala bubling… simply run away, or if u can start spamming heals, and wait for it to disappear. U will magically stop having issues with pala bubles…
Look shaman can two shot you from range add that with multiple range and a sea of totems and traps melee can’t do much without charge or something like that, sure paladin can give freedom and shield. But who don’t dispell freedom/bop?
It’s not even close. A good shaman in group fight will always have higher value over a paladin.
And paladin tremor remove alot DMG and don’t work on the paladin.
Paladin + freedom, bop, dshield, blessing buffs
Paladin - long cd on stun and dshield, melee DMG, bad offhealing. Alot of the + can be dispelled. Slow, list can go on.
Shaman. + Totems, highest burst in-game, offheal, high armor, Can’t be sapped in ghostwolf.
Two school of magic.
Shaman - you play wrong spec
Overall melee just worse in group pvp atm how ever you bend it and thats fine. Why range so strong atm thanks to hunter trap luncher.
Runes that are “copypaste” abilities are usually better because they take up a rune slot. that is the justification for them being better than their counterpart.
paladin’s horn of lordaeron is strength of earth and grace of air totems combined, requires no totems, and cost less mana, than the shaman’s counterpart.
same goes for the tremor aura paladin gets; doesn’t require a totem (the paladin IS the totem) doesn’t require mana, doesn’t take up a gcd - its a turn on and forget ability - much better than tremor totem.
its amazing you can turn on a dime and suddenly realize this in your very next breath when it doesn’t work in your favor.
how about some objectivity?
not true.
back in vanilla blessings were widely regarded to be much better than totems because they are raidwide and just flat out better than their totem counterparts in the majority of examples you can name.
the only exception is windfury, and you already stole that from us (and again, because its a rune you get a better version than the totem counterpart. thank your lucky stars for that).
comparing grounding totem to concentration aura is pretty minibrain, they are not “mirrors” or “opposites” of each other, like blessing of might / strength of earth totem is.
grounding totem can absorb a pyroblast, or it can absorb a shadow word pain dot. depends on skill/luck, so just because you’re going out of your way to imply its OP, i’m going to do a uno reverse and claim its underpowered because ‘it always absorbs a meaningless spell, such as a dot’.
paladin PLAYERS are weaker*
this attempt to harp on shaman being OP and pala being weak is almost as old as SOD itself.
i understood the lamentation in phase 2, but its getting dumb now. shaman is fine and so are paladins.
i’m not the only one who will tell you paladin PLAYERS are the problem.
paladin in the hands of a skilled player is a monster.
you don’t find many of those, though… you want blizzard to buff the class to compensate for the players inability to play the class and solidify the wheel chair meme once and for all? is that what you want?..
my guess is that the second that happens is the same second you start spamming the forums that your class was giganerfed (because that’s what you’re asking for here).
you really willing to sacrifice your class defining ability for a “charge” ability?
Every time it all comes down to this.
Yet Shaman in MY hands is a monster
Paladin in my hands not so much, and I’m not the only one.
Does that mean I become a good, skilled PvP player the moment I log on shaman and then just lose all my skills when I play Paladin?
