Somehow, Legion was some people's favourite expansion

Community General Discussion
141

No you are wrong.

  • Artifact Grind was just a grind, the current Azerite System has RNG components to it, in addition to a Rep system with essences, in-addition to RNG components with Corruption, in-addition to a Grind with Legendary cape. So you’re wrong as you’re only comparing 1 system, Legion had 1 grind System, BFA has multiple.

  • Essences are what Blizzard call a Band aid system due to lack of depth to classes. Which is a huge grind. Also the Legendaries where terrible but aren’t comparable as the Essences are more comparable with the Artifact and Azerite Triats to Legendaries. At least with Legendaries once you got them you didn’t need to swap them out. With Azerite, you need to hope your item upgrade has the right azerite traits, which now you have to hope have the right corruption as well. So again, you’re wrong.

  • Butchered YES. because they just pruned Legion further, There was no vision, they just ignored the problem until they had to patch it with essences.

  • PVP Servers where PVP always, Now everybody has the option to flip a switch and turn off PVP. it results in people grouping into pvp Shards and forcing the World PVP rather than simply allowing it to unfold naturally. World PVP was just as good in TBC (Sunwell) / Wrath (ICC) - Mop (timeless isles), WOD (tanaan jungle). So again you’re wrong.

142

Are you on the herbs mate? If you think for one second the artifact system was better than the azerite/essence system, you need to go to sleep.

143

Azerite has vendor 100% deterministic, raids drop 100% deterministic azerite pieces - completely wrong
Essences are 100% deterministic.

Corruption is garbage system but it has nothing to do with azerite, it is a replacement for titanforging because people were crying about it, now I laugh at people not understanding basic math saying that TF was bad, it wasn’t.

Which is a problem of legion and all that rental power gear, this is what you get when your entire character depends on rental power gear

You say that as if ever lore was great, not it wasn’t. Legion lore was also mediocre as well.

No, forcing world pvp or more like ganking-kids-party was dumb idea, good riddance. And this comes from someone who has WM on all the time on horde.

And no, you don’t get to chose the server, you play on the same your friends are playing so if you dont like pvp but your friends are all on PVP server - you had no choice.

I think you need to go sleep or learn reading with comprehension

144

Well, the first one is the WoD or the MoP system, and the second one is now, and what we have now doesn’t work and makes pvp garbage. So I’d rather have anything other than this BfA stupid system for pvp, and the MoP or WoD gearing system was by far the best one we had thus far.

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145

Still a better Xpac than BfA.

146

No, WoD pvp gear didn’t have pvp resil/power so not comparable. Sorry but that is not a solution, game is focused more on PvE so PvP cannot be better way to obtain same-power level gear as PvE. Either split gear types or make PvE acquisition faster.

147

It was lower itemlevel than PvE gear by default, and scaled up when engaged in PvP combat. What do you think resilience or pvp power did mate? Exactly that, they were over budget pvp only stats that in effect made pvp gear behave at a superior power level to pve gear when engaged in pvp combat, while at the same time being inferior in pve (due to being lower base itemlevel than pve gear). That is precisely what specialized gear should do: be better in the area that it’s specialized for, while being worse in areas where it isn’t. The WoD gear system not only was exactly that, it was the best version of a pvp gearing system we ever had in this game.

Sorry, but I have a feeling you don’t actually grasp the concept of what we are talking about.

That entitles pve to get more content, which it always did and always will do, because pve is dependent on the content pipeline working full time, while pvp doesn’t require any. What it does not entitle you to is any kind of superiority or primacy that gear should offer your playstyle over ours. Or better yet, it entitles you to primacy when doing pve, in the same way our playstyle entitles us to primacy when doing pvp.

Again: split gear types = MoP, WoD systems. Worked fine for both pve players and pvp players. Faster pve acquisition = BfA, with which the entire pvp community, from the random bg casual player to the rank 1 Blizzcon competitor, is unsatisfied. So yes, give us split gear types, like WoD, best system we ever had.

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148

Wrong, nobody even considered anything else than PvP when they freshly leveled alts. Only heroic raid gear was better but nobody wanted to push fresh alts thru heroic raid.

I have way better idea what I am talking about than you since I’ve been there done that (10 times at least). Every alt geared up in no time thanks to PvP.
PvE had nothing even remotely close to gearing up alts.

It is to not force PvE players into PvP.

PvP vendors had gigantic advantage besides having unmatched ilvl vs any other pve content excluding raids = you had ability to pick specific piece of gear not being at RNG mercy.
This is why vendors will never return to PvP again unless they will totally separate gear.

Again, Split gear system = ONLY MoP.
WoD was not split gear system, period. It was unmatched power acquisition compared to anything PvE got to offer.

149

scale of m+ was my favorite one in the legion … +2 was like 885 gear i thing and +15 was all the way to 940 from dungeon and 960 from chest i think and was nice curve of character progression not like in bfa where from min to max is 25 item levels tbh m+ in s3 was supposed to be from +375 on +2 up to 430 on +20 , or even from 345 on +2 up to maybe +30 and 430 , and for s4 just adding even more , maybe not exacly all what i have told here but there is big gap from dungeon on lvl 119 which is less than 300 and normal on 120 already gives 370 , hc 385 , myth 400 there is just to big gap just after u level up is min 70 item levels gap and after that is just 15 levels

150

Possibly because getting fully pvp geared via Ashran/casual BGs deep into a season and it’s catchup conquest cap made gear acquisition so effortless, not because it was straight up better than normal raid gear, but comparable enough in addition to being so easy to get a lot of quickly.

It wouldn’t have been an issue when normals were actual progress raiding to guilds because you couldn’t get more than maybe 1 piece a week. After people have it on a speedrun-levels of farm, the only roadblock in clearing normal in comparison to PvP was that your gear acquisition was “capped” in pve but not in pvp.

The pvp gear’s stats were actually pretty similarly budgeted in comparison to how pvp items were in MoP. Resil and PvP power were not taken into account during MoP.

So what you’re saying is only half-true, and the fix is not to scrap the best iteration of pvp gearing, but to add mid-season catchup mechanics into pve similar to what the conquest cap catchup offers.

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151

Dungeons were only valid in very first season, after that, everyone hit ashran.
There was no real gear separation in WoD, thats why it sucked.

152

But there literally was?

Highest tier PvP gear was comparable to normal raid gear, unless you were in pvp combat, then it got bumped to mythic ilevel.

What exactly is the difference between that and the MoP gearing system, in practice? You still had haste, mastery, crit and what have you in pvp gear during MoP, and those stats were budgeted very similarly to how they were in WoD.

153

“Nobody”? Bold statement, and considering I actually know people who didn’t like PvP and had no problem whatsoever gearing their alts through PvE normally, it’s also a wrong statement.

When Hellfire Citadel came out, normal raid gear was the better than honor gear, heroic gear was better than conquest gear - in PvE that is, both were worse than PvP gear in PvP.

WoD’s issue was always that it lacked actual content, so since it never had a 3rd tier of raid, when Season 3 started and the pvp gear itemlevel got upped, normal raid became unviable. However, that shouldn’t happen and as a matter of fact didn’t happen after WoD. There was no issue whatsoever with raid vs pvp gear, there was an issue with lack of enough content, which is the major flaw of WoD altogether.

However, you seem to think the other way around is fine. And no, we aren’t talking about gearing alts at the most basic level, we are talking about having to do high end pve to get the required stuff, which is this trash BfA system. Which is the peak of hypocrisy.

There was no other pve content besides raids. Now there is other pve content besides raids, which makes this point moot. Again, not a gearing system issue, but a lack of pve content issue, which was, once more, WoD’s biggest flaw.

This is just dumb. Do you understand how the MoP gearing system worked at least? Let me lay it out for you: in the last season of MoP, pvp gear was exactly like in the last season of WoD the easiest route to cheap itemlevel to get you started to pve, by farming honor. That is if you were capable to farm honor efficiently without having gear, which is precisely the same question to be answered for WoD by the way. Even better, if you were capable at the later stages of the SoO / S4 tier to cap your big conquest cap instead of farming honor, you could get a full set of 550 ilvl gear, which is for most slots better than flex (current normal), which is, you guessed it, precisely the same situation you seem to think was not ok in WoD.

BUT! There are differences now. In either MoP or WoD, as a pve player you were bound to raid lockouts, and every other source of gear besides raids was null for you, worthless. That is in fact what made pvp a good source for a starter set of pve gear, not the system. Now, however, you have repeatable, scaling pve content in the form of mythic+, which is not going away. You now have an actual better source even for starter pve gear than you had in either MoP or WoD, which means that this so called “issue” you are trying to harp on is in fact a non-issue. In the meantime, pvp players under this trash BfA system have to farm not a 3 hour pve grind to get a starter set, after which they are free to never set foot in pve again, but instead week after week all the time or fall behind horribly.

So yea, no thanks for your BfA system. BfA pvp gearing can go rot in pieces, it’s the biggest joke of a system they ever brought for pvp in this game.

154

Yeah and it took them ages compared to ashran method which you could join naked.

Yeah and how you gonna get to that normal after leveling? You could not even join LFR.

No it is not fine, which is why I am up for nearly equal gear acquisition speed OR total gear separation. Not for gear vendor.

155

Ashran, in it’s WoD iteration, does not exist anymore though, so that’s really a non-issue if the system was to be re-introduced.
People aren’t asking for it to come back either since it was the single most disliked aspect of PvP gearing during WoD, and not just because it allowed “naked people to get easy gear”.

Your average PvPers didnt like the idea of being funneled into Ashran for their gear any more than you did.

156

You are completely mistaken about 2 things.

Fist you assume what majority likes or not. There were plenty of people who liked ashran including me who doesnt like pvp in general.

Second, it wasn’t ashran fault, it was system fault that didn’t have any alternative.

Biggest issue is that pvp players never had any rng in gearing. They just straight up bought what they want while PVE you are at mercy of RNG at pretty much every corner except for azrite. And don’t get me started on legiondaries. This is probably why pvp vendor will never return.
However I think PvP gear acquisition should be a bit faster, almost as fast as M+ spamming if you have appropriate rating.

157

RNG gearing is counter to everything pvp is about. PvP is about equal competition that is supposed to be decided by whoever plays better, not by who gets luckier with drops. It’s fine to have RNG in pve, because pve brings challenges who’s level of difficulty decreases over time when gear increases, which means that they can design a raid which Method can clear in the first 2-3 weeks, and less dedicated pve players can in months. PvP doesn’t work like that, because the challenge isn’t static, the challenge is other players, and it breeds a profound sense of unfairness to fight against someone who wins because they rolled the dice better. The basis of pvp is fair play, while the basis of pve is gear progression. Each mode needs a system that is designed for it, and the system that is tried and true and brought fair play in pvp was vendors. Not the legion bs, and least of all the BfA garbage.

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158

My mistake on assuming your preference, though Ashran was very reviled at the time precisely because people felt like they “had” to do it even when they didn’t want to, for easy currency acquisition, and some items being completely locked behind the RNG box at the end of the weekly.

The system, within the context of PvP gearing, did also have an alternative in BGs, which is where I’d like to see the mid-tier pvp gearing to shift over current M+ and normal/heroic raids.

You remove Ashran from the equation, you find yourself with a system that’s far less lucrative for a PvE-er to engage in for a full set of gear.
BGs handed out an allright amount of conquest on the first win, subsequent wins gave a lot less, so if you didn’t want to spam BGs for hours and days, you were looking at a much more spaced out time investment, which started to look a LOT more like the kind of time investment you’d have to put into LFR and normal for the same amount of gear.

Unless of course you were just going for the honor gear instead, which was sub-LFR levels of ilevel in PvE. Doable if you just wanted your foot in the door for LFR minimum req and later on normals, but still behind both of those in actual power.

With the current system of upscaling ilevel rewards from normal/heroic 5mans with a new season, a PvE-er would probably find little reason to use PvP gear to bypass thresholds in PvE, unless they explicitly want that PvP gear for the purposes of PvP.

159

Then why not remove any gear meaning in pvp simply assining the same stats for everyone? Well, because gear is a core part of this game, this is why blizzard went away from templates.

160

The problems with templates were that:
a) they disallowed choice, as in preferring to experiment in a different way, for example stacking crit or haste or whatever; you were put in the position to only take what was given and never vary it according to preference, which sucked;
b) they were completely opaque; you actually never knew what your actual stats were in pvp with the template, as opposed to the WoD system, which provided accurate stats.

Why they moved away from the templates? Because they don’t know how to design the pvp system properly, which is why we have the utter mess that is BfA, that I am yet to see a single respectable pvp players saying it’s good.

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