That is just your assumption. From my perspective there are 2 kinds of pvp players in this game:
First one liked templates while second group hated it.
Disallowing choice makes balancing pvp easy and also makes skill matter much more.
You think it is just that easy, just make WoD system back, well, no, it was changed because people complained about it since forever.
Itâs simple: templates were complained about more than liked, but having the legion system without templates, which is what BfA is, is worse.
What people? There was never even a minute amount of complaints about pvp gearing in particular during WoD. People complained about a lot of things, such as ability pruning, lack of content, Ashran being boring and bad and so on, but gearing wasnât one of them. Go ahead, dig through the WoD Arena forums and find those complaint threads, and I guarantee for each you may find, Iâll find 50 in BfA, and for that matter in Legion as well. And if you will find at least one thread demanding for the removal of vendors, with any indication of popularity or support behind it from the community, Iâll personally buy you a 6 pack and send it to you. But you wonât find any, because there were no threads that fit the description.
Edit: if there was any complaint about pvp gearing that was prevalent for a time in WoD, it was about the RNG crate in trashran.
It simple: You are wrong because you have no statistics. It might have been the same as with other things ie. idea was good, execution was poor.
Oh sweet summer child. It just means you havenât been on forums back then or you completely ignored whining threads because they did not fit your agenda.
Go ahead, prove your statement instead of cheap irony. Iâd like to see those threads.
What statistics for heavenâs sake? We have statistics that show pvp participation mate, and BfA has the lowest participation by far that any of the previous expansions. Even the first season, which was so far the most reasonable one. And no, those are not hard to come by, all you need to do is know the rank 1 cutoffs, which are public information.
You made a claim so burden of proof is on you. And it is impossible to confirm now that old forums are dead and cannot be accessed. However it is amusing at most, thinking nobody complained back then, people always complain, since the very beginning when i started playing this game. Iâve seen numerous threads about being rolfstomped while not having pvp gear in MoP, thousands of complaints about people gearing up thru PvP cause it was fastest or that is too easy to gear up.
You donât. Raw participation numbers doesnât mean a thing. You need participation rates and to have that you would also need total players count which you donât have.
No, I didnât make a statement. I made a negation, which was that WoD forums werenât ripe with threads demanding for the removal of the pvp vendors, or complaining about the pvp gearing system, at least not without enough support. The one who made a claim is you, when you claimed and I quote âIt just means you havenât been on forums back then or you completely ignored whining threads because they did not fit your agendaâ. Since you are so well informed, show them. Where are the whine threads mate? Show us your superior forum knowledge. Come on, bring it on.
Iâve never said ânobodyâ. There will always be somebody complaining. But itâs easy to figure out if they have support or not, by reading the actual threads, numbers of likes on the opening posts compared to the relative popularity of other issues, and so on. For example, nowadays threads asking for the return of pvp vendors tend to be the more highly upvoted OPs on the forums. Itâs pretty obvious that public opinion is generally in favor.
And yet, the irony or ironies is you canât point even a few of them when asked to bring them on.
You have total player count. The number of rank 1 players is known, because we have leaderboards. The number of rank 1 players is also 0.1% of the total count. So you have total player count if you have enough functioning brain cells to multiply the number of rank 1 players by 1000.
And yes, participation means everything. Shows how popular pvp is in this expansion with this dumb system you are defending for no reason whatsoever.
Which part of âold forums are inaccessibleâ do you not understand?
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/4aeqvd/i_see_a_lot_of_questions_about_gearing_up_alts_so/
There you go, I see at least couple of whines there.
Well then you just admitted a lie, that is enough to dismiss your claim.
Yet again you donât know what âgeneralâ opinion is. Donât even start with that logical fallacy. Vast majority of players donât post on forums, this is something we know from blizzard.
You donât have total player count. This is not even up for discussion, you donât know how much TOTAL player count changed during this time.
Plus you donât know the reasons why people quit. Suggest to read ghostcrawler post about why people quit game instead of making up claims unsupported by anything.
Hey, just read them, thanks for proving my point that Ashran was what was moaned about and not the gearing system and especially not vendors. But hey, nice going! Because I hope you read your own example and realized that itâs 100% an Ashran thread. Did you?
No, I didnât admit any lie, but feel free to point it out. What I said, however, is " There was never even a minute amount of complaints about pvp gearing in particular during WoD. People complained about a lot of things, such as ability pruning, lack of content, Ashran being boring and bad and so on".
In other words, I deliberately left open the possible case in which some random person moaned about it. But hey, nice try.
We know the general opinion of those who do express one at least. Thatâs the best we got to go by. Your tactic actually scooped so low to only try to prove that stuff isnât entirely a sure thing? Itâs already dodgy, given that we started from the height of âsweet summer childâ and other pathetic little superior insults.
So your thesis is what, that people quit WoW? An equal measure from other areas of the game? Well, I can agree that the whole game is crap in BfA, not just pvp, if thatâs the argument you were trying to make. But what is clear is that fewer people play rated pvp in BfA than did in Legion, and fewer people played pvp in Legion than WoD. Surprisingly, thatâs not the case between WoD and MoP, since 2/3 seasons of WoD actually were more popular than 3/4 seasons of MoP.
So you didnât understand. Let me explain then
Because of how easy it was to gear up using pvp (not ashran but also BGs) PVE players complained about being forced to pvp. BGs were also better and faster, its just that ashran was fastest.
And because of that PvP players complained about PvE players who are infesting their games.
But hey, nice try.
Which is completely useless as it does not represent measurable and significant portion of playerbase.
This means you do not understand how it works.
First of all, players are simply bored of this game, no matter how perfect next expansion will be, there will be always a portion of playerbase not satisfied just enough to quit. Thus, having less players doesnât mean certain feature sucks.
Take a mythic raids as example, we have 3/4 of what we had in legion, 3/5 what we had in WoD and HALF of what it was in MoP.
Does that mean raids suddenly sucks? No it just means we have half of total player count in MoP. Why?
We donât know that.
That doesnât mean none. But hey, nice try.
And yet, the thread you linked to prove this theory does not say that. Have you actually bothered to read your own proof?
Do you have a better sample? Better data? Because if you donât, all you do it keep being mister âitâs not a perfect example, therefore itâs uselessâ, which by the way is a logical fallacy.
Yes, surely itâs proof that things are better and better.
I donât know, I donât do mythic raiding so I have no idea if they suck or not. I used to partake in some mythic raiding in MoP, and I can speak solely for myself when I say I enjoyed them more then than afterwards, but thatâs about it. I also wasnât interested to read the threads debating the merits or demerits of mythic raiding, so I canât possibly have a proper opinion on that. But Iâd say that, generally speaking, people seem to be negative about the game, at least when they speak up, which is a lot lately, so yea maybe thatâs the reason.
Well, we have two options. Option one is to read what people say about the game, and actually take their word for it. Which is what I do. Option two is to bury your head in the sand, which seems to be your approach.
You are just trying to weasel out of it, typical forum poster, presenting opinions as facts.
Yes I did, those who were exited only because they had easy gear. Like me, I didnât do a thing on ashran with my ânakedâ alts, guess others were extremely happy to have couple of naked players there.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/38qvii/62_pvp_gear_clarification/
I hate RBGâs, IMO they are just awful, ashran is also bad, but iâm forced to do both if i want to compete in arena? like wtf. this is equivalent of forcing a PvE player to do mythic dungeons to do mythic/heroic raids, like why?
Of course not, thus I am not trying to disguise my opinions as facts like you, and you should stop doing that too.
Funny fact: It doesnât mean anything. It is not a proof of anything besides that we just have less players.
I have been actively raiding mythics since MoP and most people I knew left just because they were bored. Nobody ever complained (from people I knew) about raids being garbage or lacking in quality. They are some hits and misses but overall quality at least stayed pretty close to what we had back then. So no, it doesnât prove anything.
No, we have two opinions, yours, blindly following what other says and mine, measuring every single feature with cold heart logic completely ignoring what other people say.
Plus from what you read I have a bit broader horizon as I take into account other perspectives of players and I can roughly guess why certain portion of playerbase may like or dislike certain features more. While you are only judging from your own perspective.
That whole thread, the one you linked before, is about some people excited they can get easy starter gear from Ashran, and others upset about it. Ashran is no more, and no other zerg pvp zone has been added, certainly not so lucrative. Bgs were barely mentioned there, by two people from what I skimmed through. Others were mentioning mythic dungeons and baleful, also few.
And yes, for what itâs worth, Ashran sucked. I agree. Let it burn.
But earlier you were mentioning you will show all those complaints about VENDORS. Where are they? Didnât see a single one in those two threads you linked so far.
I donât dispute any opinion about raiding, because I didnât do enough of it to be in theme. And my personal opinion with no reflection on others is that MoP raiding was really fun, while afterwards not that much. But I do know a lot of pvp players, and all, and I kid you not, all of those I know who stopped playing before I did have done that for two reasons: class design and lack of vendors and proper pvp gear.
Thatâs literally one hilarious pompousness right there. :)) Itâs peopleâs opinions and tastes mate, they are subjective, there is nothing objective to measure about opinions and tastes.
Lol 
Okay mate, sure you do.
BG were still faster than anything PvE had to offer, if you hated ashran, you still go pvp to gear up.
Lets not kid ourselves. PvP vendors did not make pvp unplayable, you still had ways to earn gear, so if you trully liked PvP that wouldnât be enough to make you quit. One thing that could - unfun pvp gameplay. If it was enough, then you were playing pvp just for gear and games themselves werenât interesting enough.
There is nothing wrong in having opinion, trying to disguise it as fact or worse - trying to project your opinion as âmajorityâ is all wrong.
I love my Arcane mage now. I have an extreme burst damage but I am a glass cannon. If I can stay at one place, i will do tremendous damage. If I have to move to much, not so much. I am comfort with that. My role is what it is.
But now you have the mythic plus system which wasnât around in WoD, where you can grind pve gear without having to worry about that either. So itâs another moot point, if even true.
Yes, by themselves they wouldnât. If we had MoP class design and no AP grind, no essences, no other pve grinds beyond having to get a few items from there, pvp would still be playable. However, the combination of deteriorating class design and unavailability of pvp gear only makes things worse. And you underestimate how much some people despise pve, itâs the same magnitude as for some other people who despise pvp. Itâs really fun shattering to be pushed into what you donât like.
To be able to see a plurality, you need to actually read peopleâs opinions and take their word that what they say is what they feel. In fact, itâs ridiculous to assume otherwise in the first place, because what possible interest could they have? There are, even at this very moment, several threads in which people are asking for pvp vendors back on this very forum. Those threads are pretty highly upvoted. On the Arena section, there are more, as well as more threads complaining about the pvp gearing system for this expansion. On reddit, on youtube, on pretty much every media channel where fans express opinions about the game, itâs the same thing. On the US section of the forums there was a thread made by Venruki with literally thousands of upvotes on the same subject. I told you before and it feels like repeating myself at this point, but you can either open your eyes and infer from which direction the wind blows, because all signs, imperfect as they might be, point to it, or you can put your fingers in your ears try to pretend it isnât happening. But this is what is happening, regardless of how much you choose to pretend.
This is why I said PvP gearing should be nearly as fast as gearing tru M+. Right now you get a piece of random heroic gear once 40 minutes if you play at least +15 or (3/5)% chance to get a piece each 40 minutes. Arena lasts ~ 5 minutes so you should be gettin a piece of heroic level gear each ~8-10 arenas and more if you are on higher score. Of course with some minimum rating scaling like M+
That is just your opinion, mine is that class design was absolute garbage in MoP. Tanks being best dpses or unkillable, hunters deleting people accounts on arenas with one button, disci priest putting tons of shield just by doing damage, affli warlock unquestionable gods at sustained aoe, MM hunter being so bad nobody played it and so on. I played back then, have really good memory.
And people have different opinions, different than mine, different than yours.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2520671-Do-people-actually-like-classes-in-BFA
So itâs not really argument as again you dont know how many people like or dislike the changes.
Oh so this is what you lack, I can predict people opinions without actually hearing it from them, like actually trying to put myself in their shoes. Even with people who have polar opposite of my own opinions, I really can.
Like I can actually fully understand why people like classic even if I absolutely hate it.
Itâs not really hard, practice a couple of times reading patch notes and try to imagine what particular groups of players with think about certain features. The moment you reach totally contradicting opinions is the moment you master this.
And it still doesnât mean A SINGLE THING. This is literally like droplet in the sea.
You know when something starts to make enough impact to be considered as almost significant portion of playerbase?
When some topic reaches post cap like camera changes multiple times.
~someone who played old demo for 5 minutes
Unfortunately for you, I am rotation helper addon author and had unpleasant good couple hours testing it, plus a good couple of weeks on mythic altruns in WoD blackrock foundry.
https://i.imgur.com/Vf5AWeJ.png
I literally could not force myself to learn better play this spec it was that repulsive for me. On the contrary that is my hunter on HFC, mainrun this time:
https://i.imgur.com/60cXtyZ.png
and the same warlock in current expansion, demo:
https://i.imgur.com/OVn2kGt.png
itâs okay buddy I understand that spamming incinerate and chaos bolt is much easier on your brain 
canât strain the poor thing too much
You do realize those are destro spells right? I play demo mostly.
Destro was always boring.