Except the internment camps? And the Broken Shore? And much of the Third War? And all the other times the Horde in its various forms have lost and survived?
The Horde are -EVIL-! … Oh wait, that’s not a spoiler!
My bad.
From my point of view the Alliance Cenarions Argents Kirin Tor GNOMES are evil.
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… ! gasp
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TBH they did change fury warrior azerite traits from BiS to ‘lmao you idiot you actually pay us for this’ with the new patch, adding a bunch of random new ones and making them absolute BiS by a mile (so everyone who farmed & got BiS before the patch became an absolute loser and lost over 3k dps)
Luckily, unlike Baine, I kept all of my Azerite gear and it just so happened that I ended up with BiS on the slot machine 
I should return to the peeve thread.
It’s true, though. While the writing is not ideal, that’s how the story goes. Sylvanas keeps coming up with plans to decimate the Alliance and then some loser starts complaining/messes up those plans because apparently torturing a dude is far worse than the guaranteed death of your people + their soldiers + the major loss of many lives and ecosystems.
It’s like GoT. Yeah, you might love the Starks and A-doooore how honourable and amazing they are, but truth is, they’re the traitors and they caused colossal collateral damage and ultimately ended up weakening the world for the White Walkers so everyone will likely end up dying now. GJ Ned you sure showed them how bad incest & murder is.
Literally same scenario. You might absolutely love Saurfang + his progressive 2k19 moral justice, but Sylvanas is NOT looking forward to entire kingdoms being lost over the span of a few years/decades which is literally what would happen. So instead of one faction dominating the other and finally restoring world peace and union under one nation, the Old Gods are going to wake up and destroy half the world again. GJ Saurfang you sure showed them how terrible immorality is in a war that’s been going on for over nearly 40 years.
Edit: Jaina tried peace. So did Thrall. So did Tyrion, and Sargeras, and Deathwing. Peace isn’t a thing in WoW. It’s a Warhammer ripoff and people need to accept that very simple fact. So working with that knowledge, ending the war by all means necessary is still better than decades of mass murder, poverty, and suffering.
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Like that plan to “kill hope!” by burning down Teldrassil! Sure worked, certainly no resistance from them anymore. Didn’t rally the Alliance at all…
Were people actually hyped for this expansion? Seems like from an outside perspective it’ll take a while to fix things if not outright praying some systems get scrapped now. What a shame 
I know I wasn’t.
“ Is it possible?” she said. “If we marched an army to Darkshore to take the World Tree, would the Alliance be able to stop us?”
No. Not if the attack caught them by surprise. Not if the Horde could avoid getting bogged down in Ashenvale . . .
“High Overlord,” Sylvanas pressed, “speak your mind. Is it possible?”
“It is possible,” Saurfang said slowly, “but not without serious consequences.”
“Indeed.”
“We would win one battle, not the war,” Saurfang said. “If we shift the balance of power, the Alliance will respond in kind. Our nations in the Eastern Kingdoms would be vulnerable to retaliation.”
“Especially mine,” Sylvanas said.
He was glad she had said it instead of him. What target would Greymane demand the Alliance attack but Sylvanas’s seat of power? “I do not know if we can protect the Undercity, not while the Alliance is united against us.”
“And what if they were not?” Sylvanas smiled again. “What if they were divided?”
Then the Horde wins. “How would that happen? If we launch a sneak attack on the night elves’ home, the entire Alliance will seek vengeance.”
“At first, yes. They will be furious, united against our aggression,” she said. “But what will the night elves want more than anything? They will demand that the Alliance help retake their conquered home.”
But the Alliance will not have the strength, not in Kalimdor, not with their fleets.
Again. She had done it again. She had opened his mind to a new possibility, and the world shifted under his feet. The strategic implications spun out before him like the Maelstrom. “It will take years before they can even consider retaking Darnassus.”
“You understand, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “Think it through. What happens next?”
I’m sure glad this did not AT ALL go as perfectly planned from the start . . . . . . .
Sylvanas messes up those perfectly well on her own. She isn’t new to the Horde, she is well aware that the other Horde races will not tolerate everything. She saw what happened to Garrosh. She pushes them to rebel anyway.
In fact let’s take Garrosh and Theramore as a comparison to Sylvanas and Teldrassil, as they are equivalent situations (both occurred at the same time in their respective reigns, were meant as decisive blows etc).
Garrosh waited and allowed the enemy to evacuate the civilians, while the Alliance sent in more and more soldiers and important officers to prepare the defenses. Then he dropped a bomb on them. Pow. Instant decisive victory with few civilian casualties and few Horde losses. It was not exactly a super saintly move, but it was morally grey in a not-memey way and highly effective.
Sylvanas is the opposite. She has Teldrassil in her grasp and learns that it’s now empty of soldiers - only civilians remain. It’s perfect. If taken hostage, it can win the war in one decisive strike. Sylvanas knows well Anduin wouldn’t tolerate an attack on the Horde while Sylvanas has a knife to the throat of a large portion - maybe even a majority - of the Kaldorei civilian population, and Tyrande is unlikely to like that situation either. Her own troops never sleep, eat or breathe, making them the perfect guards of the hostage population.
But she burns it all of course for the evulz, forcing the Horde into an extremely bloody war, and ensuring that if they lose the repercussions will be all the more severe. Genius. Not.
Hell, forcing the war to a halt with her knife comfortably at the opponent’s throat seems like it would be a plan Sylvanas would like, right? But she’s apparently not that smart.
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That was before Kul Tiras was in the picture though.
I wasn’t, really. I knew the Horde would be compromised like this with Sylvanas in charge.
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So what you’re saying is that the Horde is a collective mass of idiots who don’t know what they want and do have a history of betraying one another in the peak of the moment when a decisive victory is at hand. See: the original ‘The Horde wins over all’ when Gul’dan pulled away, like, 3 clans to go and dig up some bones.
So it’s either ‘the Horde are actual idiots’ which I’m in no way keen to RP, or it’s ‘the writing is so bad we can’t even make sense of it anymore’.
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I would have been hyped if Cata garrosh had been in charge tbh.
And Varian, preferably. It would have been a perfect BFA.
Anduin and Sylvanas have no balance. One is obviously evil and the other is obviously almost too good.
WoW needs balance. There needs to be justification and moral strength for both sides.
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I like to think the Horde are made up of different races with different cultures, and different views on everything from society to war and so eventually, different opinions.
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I am theoretically a fan of the Horde (until Sylvanas took command) so I want to say the latter. But the former is not an impossibility given how Blizzard likes to do things nowadays.
Btw I am going to insist there was absolutely no reason to get rid of cataclysm garrosh (assuming the supposedly unintended Stonetalon aspect of him is included).
He’s patriotic, iconic, honourable and has clear moral limits, while also being ruthless and warlike. He can inspire, but also cause some controversy. It’s balance and it’s exactly what the Horde needs.
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too little too late!
The problem with Baine’s resistance is that it rings completely hollow - guy didn’t let out a single peep at the thousands of innocents Sylvanas burned at a whim, nor his own people being vaporised by the Fart Gas Goof Troop at Lordaeron.
The straw that breaks the young bull’s back is this the manipulation of a single undead he has no personal connection to in the middle of total war (which he let escalate by remaining silent), which makes him just look like a doofus to me.
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If you ask me, he probably (assuming Blizzard has so much forethought - big if) regrets not speaking up earlier, and simply now has considered his options and decided that this is better than letting the next Teldrassil happen.
But more likely it’s just that Blizzard found it convenient for the plot.
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