Woops, fixed that for you there.
Just because you donāt like him doesnāt mean itās character regression.
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How is it character regression? Baine acts just like how Cairne would have acted and how the Tauren people in general conduct themselves as. With the whole Derek sub-plot you have to remember the Forsaken were inducted into the Horde primarily because of the Taurenās endorsement. Imagine āfree willā no longer being upheld among them and then taking a stand only to be called a ātraitorā for it.
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Even I canāt deny he is technically a traitor, but what Baine did was absolutely in character and made perfect sense. Points to recent post he made in āUnpopular Opinionsā for more details
A frontal confrontation would have only ended badly no matter how it went, and we can blame Blizzardās writers having tunnel vision for not having him react to anything thus far.
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Cairne was venerably old and went out to fight Garrosh, posterboy of the war effort and now warchief. He didnāt sulk behind his back or work with the alliance in secret.
It got him killed. But that was him. That was -Cairne-. And Cairne was cool.
Baine? Baine was cool. I actually really like him in both the nightmare story + Warcrimes (as opposed to most people), and I think heās been genuinely one of the most consistent Horde leaders there are.
He tries hard to be like his father but heās far more shy from a conflict than his father is. And thatās an okay flaw to have.
What I donāt like is that Baine, like his father, values honesty above all. And even if Sylvanas would have been a hard fight, he couldāve done it or given it a try.
But he did not. Nor did Saurfang.
I like Baineās conflict and relationship with the Earthmother and how he sees the conflict. What I donāt like is how he went on about it. Even during the rebellion when he met with Volājin in secret, he was quick to throw himself against Garrosh, even at the risk of his own people (which escalated in the Barrens).
Here he just goes on about it like a rat. Thatās not what a high chieftain like he (according to his archetype) should or would do. And thatās why itās (in my view) regression.
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I hate to break this to you, but thatās not character regression.
Also, Cairne had Baine to succeed him. Who does Baine have?
You could very well argue that Baine saw what happened to his father and it got him killed to no end, and he tries not to repeat the same mistake and this time plunge his people to chaos without a good leader to take up his spot. Not when you have Magatha looming around again.
Granted his gamble failed, but the motives for doing it werenāt outside of the scope of his character.
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You could make that argument.
I just happen to disagree with it.
Iād much rather had watched Baine either bide and wait his time with the rest of the Leaders, up to a breaking point afterwhich he and Saurfang couldāve banded with the rest of the Horde to make plans on how to handle the situation. The story couldāve progressed from there.
I feel that Baine, in his eternal wisdom, surely saw that thereād be obvious problems to his plot (he spared several witnesses), so he wouldnāt have gambled that high, because his gamble ended up costing him his people, the same way how dagger in the dark ended up costing for Volājin with the Darkspears.
It essentially boils down to me thinking that heād been way more wiser about it and not work on emotion. Saurfang is a senile old orc at this point, so itās crap to see it bounce onto him 2.
I am pretty sure he isnāt aware Saurfang is alive. Last he saw Saurfang, he thought he died to the Alliance and there has been nothing showing that Sylvanas spilled the beans to him.
The guy thinks he is alone in this and with good reason, because no one else seems to be saying sh*t ever.
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Yes, Cairne challenged Garrosh because he disagreed with the direction he was leading the Horde towards. The difference is that Sylvanas cares nothing for honour or tradition, so Baine canāt exactly challenge Sylvanas to a Makāgora because sheād just scoff at such a request.
Baine acted more in secret in the War Campaign because weāve seen with Saurfang what happens to those who challenge her rule by sending assassins after them. Zelling is openly executed this time and Baine (because he is the leader of the Tauren tribes) imprisoned as an act to squash the other Horde leaders into submission. Sylvanas and Garrosh are vastly different in their characterisation, so Baine cannot do what Cairne did out in the open.
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Maybe, yes. But then letting this particular issue slide would have also cost him his own integrity (which as you say is integral to his characterization), given the tauren were the ones who argued for the Forsaken to be let into the Horde because theyāre different from the Scourge. And while the Forsaken blurred that line for a long time, their free will was their corner stone that allowed them to be given the benefit of the doubt on the taurenās behalf.
Then Sylvanas went semantics schemantics and itās the taurenās own integrity on the line here. The flaw in his plan was leaving witnesses, yes, and that backfired on him.
Also as Rangoor said, far as everyone knows, Saurfang is dead (the time frame and success of Zekhan rallying people in Orgrimmar is left vague) at the hands of the Alliance. Discovering that Sylvanas was responsible for Dagger in the Dark 2 would have more than likely prompted Baine to act even sooner.
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Cairne was demolishing Garrosh until he got chipped once by a poisoned axe. Something Garrosh felt terrile shame for when he found out, itās the only reason Baine didnāt rip him a new one.
Do you honestly think a direct confrontation would have gone well? In summary we have two scenarios:
A) Thanks to her sudden banshee powers, Sylvanas would probably win outright in a duel. Baine dies, his people are now literally without a leader.
B) Baine wins, Horde is thrown into chaos after an abrupt leadership change mid-war. Too many knives might turn on him out of anger or suspision.
And he did so again. Jaina even comments on it and is scared now that she will kill him and anyone else who dared follow him. Baine took another risk to do the right thing. Horde or Alliance it doesnāt matter. A forsaken was suffering after their one single moral code was breeched, and he was able to do something about it.
I donāt think talking to the enemy immediately is cause to dismiss a character. Thrall, Cairne and far more besides have all done dealings with Alliance, ranging from trying to conclude a conflict faster to prisoner exchanges, both performed by Baine here. Was it character regression when Thrall or Volājin āworked with the Alliance in secretā even if it technically undermind the war efforts?
You are well within your right to dislike what he did, or even prefer if he did something else. But to claim it is character regression is false, everything he did was perfectly in character, reasonable and similar acts have been carried out before by past characters.
Plus: He did confess that he was responsible before Nathanos executed Zelling, which he did anyway.
This too. Zappyboi is supposed to be spreading the word, but Baineās been away from Kalimdor this whole time.
tl;dr: He acted because if he didnāt thereās a chance Jaina and co would have suffered immensely, either dying or surviving (Both of which would further goad the Alliance into demanding blood for blood, a cycle Baine wants to break).
Also Sylvanasās plan was dumb anyway. With how Jaina reacted Iām positive sheād have blown her own brother up if Baine had not been there long before he could draw a knife. Great plan, gg, amazing.
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I wonder if it would have been better if instead of Baine, Derek was handed to Jainās by Voss and Zelling instead. To show Jaina that the forsaken arenāt just a single minded monolith.
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I didnāt make the argument that heād know. But they would end up banding together, in the end, avoiding SoO 2 where Horde is at Allianceās mercy (again), and hoping they wonāt bring the hammer down this time.
Of course he can challenge her to makāgora. Just because she doesnāt value honor (whatever that means in the context of the argument), sheās still bound by the same law- And somebody challenging you publicly to a makāgora must be answered to.
Alas, Baine doesnāt know about any of this. + It still leaves the question open why would he pull such a gamble off when it was obvious itād fail.
No, I didnāt say that. I said that honesty is integral to him. Being honest means you need to be honest about the outcomes of your actions, too.
Iām aware. I just didnāt bring it up because it doesnāt have anything to do with the argument.
Baine slams her onto a wall and makes a comment about being able to rip her apart with his bare hands during Warcrimes- Now I donāt know how much his power has inflated over the years (Sylvanas has been strong always), but I think thereās a chance. But that doesnāt ultimately mean jack-all because the narrators decide the outcome.
Or the Horde might get itās act together. The First Horde certainly went through a warchief exchange mid-war with Doomhammer taking out Blackhand, for example. And it turned out pretty great (Until Gulādan).
Yeah, remembering how well that turned out? Apparently he learns from some things, but not from others.
Okay, so whatās character regression then?
I think itās a show of disregard to a characterās way of acting (IE: not doing justice to their character, and doing what the plot demands over consistency).
Hey it almost looks like itās a matter of opinion the same way people think Sylvanas is a moustache twirling villain here with no depth to her, but nobodyās up and arms about that because hey, at the end of the day, Baineās a good guy, right?
Iāve argued that I think the actions he took are dumb. Mainly because his plan made no sense. I understand why he -wanted- to do it, but I donāt think heād done it, because with the way how he executed his plan there was 100% no chance heād not have his cover blown.
Now you can disagree with me on that all you want, thatās fair. But Iām going to call it regression regardless.
Yes, because as we know, Jaina can do no wrong choices and survives everything and allā¦
Yes but why would he realistically wait on a bunch of people that seem to never state their opposition on things or a guy that he thinks is dead? Thatās the whole point of him acting alone because he thinks he is alone.
It took him getting imprisoned for the rest of the leaders, bar one, to start grumbling about it, lol. The entire Horde leadership seems to have the communication skills of the average pug group.
Edit: Also his words state that he believes they are running out of time because āThe Earthmother diesā. He can not wait around for things to get better when the clock ticks.
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As Warchief I really doubt Sylvanas, as an undead elf, adheres to the Orcish traditions or Horde customs in general. It hasnāt been established anywhere that she is bound by that law as you say. When a Warchief acts out of line like Garrosh and now her thereās no system really in place to prevent that from happening.
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Thatās what integrity is. And in the end he was honest about it too, he confessed instead of letting Zelling fall on the sword for him. When Jaina said Sylvanas might kill him for it, he was honest and acknowledged that itās a possibility and heās willing to accept it.
At no point is Baine made out to be lying and dishonest about everything heās done, because he values honesty and he has the integrity to maintain it. Thatās integral to his character.
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Just want to correct this, Doomhammer took out Blackhand at the tail end of the First War, when the other future Alliance nations either didnāt believe the stories of the orcs rampaging through the strongest Kingdom, or thought theyād be safe and Stormwind would vanquish the foes.
Doomhammer then took the time to build up his forces and consolidate what he had, while the Alliance was busy forming and creating army to combat them.
If the Warchiefs would switch now, they would switch at the height of the current war, not at the tail end, and the leadership change would be radical from victory-at-any-cost to victory-but-with-honour.
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Jaina-fatigue anyone?
Or rather, Human-fatigue.
I know ot makes sense the KTs follow the Horde out in sea; but by Elune could they not have putted atleast one of the three Dwarves(Muradin had been AFKing the whole expansion) or that panda-lady in charge of the pursuit?
Its getting tiresome to see the Human High Command meetings and Humans take any and all leading roles.
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Donāt forget weāll probably see humans (undeath or otherwise) lead the charge into Mechagon and ZināAzshari (instead of gnomes/goblins and night elves/nightborne elves).
Wanna bet?
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