I blame that more on Blizzard riding the “Muh Honor” train to hard on them. As far as I can see, it’s completely normal for the orcs to do war. It’s a pretty big deal of their culture, even without the demon juice. Draenor was a world that was actively trying to kill them. And in WoD we see that you cant exactly negotiate with some of the forces there.
That mindset just doesnt go away, because your human raised Warchief said so. For all we know, the majority of the orcs could just belief that the alliance wont let them alone, tries to kill them and deny them their right of governing themselfs. And what does a culture like the orcs do when confronted with such a problem? They get the axe until the problem goes away.
Infact most races in Azeroth operate like that. Even the Tauren fought their enemies on Kalimdor since WC3 until they wherent a problem anymore. The few instances of understanding and working together, like we see in Legion, Dalaran or between the faction leaders, are hardly representative of what goes on in the head of Grunt#3455 or Footman#372, who where raised in War like cultures.
Now that I think of it, I believe every of the playable races (minus allied races) had atleast 1 War that threatened their very existence as a people. Pacts and Truces where broken again and again between the factions.
For the Meme it is, Sylvanas actually had a valid point. In “A Good War” she gets Saurfang onboard for the whole War of Thorns with a simple question. That reveals the mindset of MANY in the factions.
I’m still always both peeved and amazed whenever orcs in lore are talking about the “good old days when the Horde had honour”, but whenever they describe in detail when that was, its almost never when Thrall was in charge, but instead back when they were still pawns to Gul’dan.
Which is kinda weird, since according to Blizzard’s own lore on the MU Orcs, sure…yeah they had a warlike/tribalistic society, but were relativly peaceful. The whole “Raagh me kill everything, blood and glory” was portrayed to have been a diffrence brought on by Gul’dan/Demons to help ease them into creating the Horde and become warmongering slave armies.
But apparantly the orcs went through Flanderization as the story went on.
Yeah. Honor is indeed a weird topic and not just for the orcs. All I can say is that it is very subjective and it’s interpretation entirely depends on the circumstances.
You can make even the most backstabbiest of moves Honorable, if it would achieve something good. Again have to go to “A Good War” again. The moment Saurfang throws his axe and hits Malf in the back and renders him into a vegetable.
From Saurfangs pov he just did a dishonorable thing by getting involved in what he considers a Duel. He did a cheap shot and decided the outcome.
Now that is him personally. But for someone watching this situation from the outside, Saurfang just aided the Warchief take down a hated enemy of the Horde. He protected his Warchief. That’s honorable right? Or is it not, because a Warchief should be able to win their own battles?
I’d definately say they focused to much on the “Peacefull hunter gatherer society” stick. I cant even see such a thing existing in a world like Draenor, where even the plants and rocks want to eat you. But that is on Blizzard, for steering to hard with one narrative and then throwing it overboard later. Since WoD the discussion about “peacefull orcs” is over for me. They always liked war. End of it.
That’s the issue. The WC3 presentation of orcs was what many people liked about them. Now with WoD, they pretty much killed that aspect of orcs, making them nothing more than brutish warmongers, which in my opinion is quite boring, repeated and unoriginal trope.
Some clans took more to war and clung to their lands more fiercely than others. Frostwolves and Whiteclaw were some of the less violent clans, where the Warsong, Blackrock and Bleeding Hollow were actively waging war on the races they considered rivals.
The fate of the Whiteclaw clan might have been a part in spurring on the more violent traits in the Horde as well, as it clearly demonstrated the fate of clans “too weak” to save themselves… but that’s speculation on my end.
And there lies the issue. For years and years the Frostwolfs with Thrall as their posterboy have been the epidome of what a orc should be. When infact they should have just been a flavour of orcish society.
And even then. We have individuals like Ga’nar or Fenris that came from the Frostwolfs, but displayed utter ruthlessness. Even Durotar had his war lust popping in his animated short. The Lust for battle and war is in all orcs. Some clans philosphy embraces it, others try to temper it.
Yeah no. In the founding of Durotar campaign there are a few instances of orcish barbarity.
When Rexxar and Rokhan report the Kul Tiran outpost to Thrall, he orders them to head back there and watch them. Nazgrel asks what he should do if they are hostile. Thrall says he would preffer them unharmed. Buuuut. If they are showing hostilities the Orcs have his permission to Slaughter them.
I dont know man. It was always there. The posturing of the “Image” of the Frostwolfs and Thrall was just overbearing.
If only they hadn’t thrown away all nuance to his character in Pandaria, he could’ve indeed been one of the more interesting characters. Wotlk/Cataclysm Garrosh was quite interesting in that he was indeed utterly ruthless in battle, but tried to do it the way a warrior should. He listened to Saurfang and even punished Krom’gar for dropping a bomb on civilians while remembering those lessons. He scolded Blackscar for attacking the Alliance from the rear while they were assaulting a Scourge-gate in Icecrown.
And I think that’s the same sort of honor that Saurfang means. To fight and win a battle by merit of your own capabilities and skills, without resorting to ‘dishonorable’ tactics like using the Plague or drinking demonblood. It is why Garrosh was so angry at Magatha for poisoning Gorehowl, because she robbed him of the chance to defeat Cairne fair and square.
Reminder that the whole Stonetalon thing was Alex Afrasiabi going “Off message” That wasn’t meant to happen, Garrosh was always supposed to be a douche, I mean Afrasiabi admitted that himself.
MU Orc society were told and shown in history/lore to have been a relativly peaceful society of tribal and Shamanism. And the Demons gradually influenced them by pretending to be ancestors, demanding more war and blood etc, which eventually let Gul’Dan rise up and offer demon blood and form the Horde.
Thrall wished to live up to the ideals of old, to live in peace, but still able to defend yourself. As we also saw in the wc3 Campaign with Rexxar, Honour was not just about dying bloody in battle and killing stuff, Honour was about upholding your promises and vows, and serving your people, thus why Rexxar gave Honour to the old orc by taking the message to Thrall.
Then as WoW progressed, the orcs started to randomly talk about the glory of the old Horde(Which didnt exist until -after- they were already demon corrupted) and glory of battle, which has then just spiralied into basically a meme of their old selves.
AU Orcs are litterally just this as well. And the Mag’har are even worse.
Garrosh was also never really a great military strategist. There is the really weird scene in Twillight Highlands introduction where he sends away his air support because its “crazy and unpredictable, but thats totally what a winner does!”, but it really didnt do anything for him, if anything it actually made it worse.
And outside of that, his strategies in every single war, every single skirmish was basically just “Brute force steamroll, and if it doesnt work, add more force.” If Garrosh had D&D Stats, he would have like 19 in STR, DEX and CON, but be atleast below 5 in INT and WIS.
Yeah, because Garrosh knew what a whole bunch or bloodthirsty orcs is capable off. Orc are masters of combat and they wont back down. Their fury and reckleness was also to bring the enemys morale. Often a rough, brutal charge is the best strategy you can use. Orcs won battles against humans as well as night elves in their own forest
The modern Horde that Thrall founded was based on the teachings imparted on him by Grom and Drek’Thar (and in part, Sergeant). The honour system that everyone seems to call back to is a mix of Warsong and Frostwolf ideology balancing out each other.
Now it’s hard to know what exactly all that is if you haven’t read Lord of the Clans to understand what he was taught by those characters he viewed as his mentors. Live in peace with the land and foster your people’s future, but let no slight against them go unpunished. A warrior’s measure is how he treats his foe in battle. There’s glory in besting a worthy foe, but honour in knowing when to show restraint and mercy. Grom gives a speech in Lord of the Clans about war crimes and all out war and their consequences which really resonated with Thrall.
I would not know, I’m afraid I don’t follow every Dev tweet, as I’m not on twitter. That is, I’m assuming he said it on there.
They win the battle, but lose the war. I think the only war they actually won was the First War. And maybe the Third War when it was everyone against the Legion.