STOP designing the game for RWF playes - Complex tier set bonuses for 10.1

Community General Discussion
101

Ishayo you are clearly always well intentioned, so I am not going to be a jerk towards you.

All I will say is this. It is obvious that other people tried to get cheap dunks in on this post, because they were too clueless about how Warrior has functioned during DF. They thought they could get an easy W.

´´It´s just passives HUURDURR´´

´´Just´´ passive traits look like something like this.

  • Undulating Tides - Your damaging spells and abilities have a chance to crash a wave upon your target for 4450 Frost damage. When your health drops below 50%, gain a shield absorbing 34895 damage within 8 sec. When this occurs, Undulating Tides cannot trigger again for 45 sec.
104

Thank you.

engage Mr. Smith voice

… but, as we both well know, we’re not here because we agree, we’re here because we do not agree - there’s no escaping reason, no denying argument because, as we both know, without argument - we would never post.

… look, I Just watched The Matrix again. I can’t help it.

Alright, back to being serious… :rofl:

For me this really doesn’t have much to do with warriors or druids or mages or any other class in isolation. All classes have a talent tree, all classes have high complexity, and all classes have set bonuses that behave very similarly to one of these talents in that they cause some change to one or more spells which, in turn, changes the rotation.

What I am jumping at you for is that I don’t think the correct approach to solving this overwhelming complexity is to make all set bonuses percentages and make all stat gains flat scaled percentage “ratings” - that is the few of them that weren’t already.

I think the talents have too few points in them each. This was NOT a popular sentiment during the beta. Blizzard listened to the community, and the community told them that there would be no talents with 3 points or more - and the result of this plus giving us 61 points is that we have a metric ton of talents, and having a ton of talents means a ton of buttons.

This has been a huge source of problems throughout the expansion, but what I’m telling you is that saying “Well because we have this we can have nothing further” is a bad way to deal with the problem, because these talents are a constant per your spec/class, which will cause it to become very stale if nothing is ever changed around them, such as a talent set.

I also told you that the other systems you’re arguing for elsewhere, like Artefact Power, would inevitably come with its own set of talents, each talent precisely like these set bonus or existing talents, and that would worsen the situation.

Here’s some examples of what having so many talent points has done:

  1. In PvP, it’s disruption hell. In 10.1 Blizzard are giving everybody Premonition, which is an immunity to all CC that casters get for failing to be interrupted because otherwise they couldn’t do anything at all. They are also reducing the duration of all CC again to the point where their cast time or incurred GCD’s can in some cases be longer than the CC itself. This will not help.
  2. In M+, it’s also disruption hell. Blizzard have responded to the high amount of player control with mobs that relentlessly cast deadly spells on which you must use all this CC, resulting in players getting overwhelmed by mechanics. What they can’t seem to understand is that their own class design is causing this.
  3. Outrageous levels of visual noise from all these spells being cast. Players can’t see each other, players can’t see the boss, players can’t tell the mobs apart, etc. because the game world is so completely full of all the stuff that they have to dodge because they didn’t CC it combined with the outrageous visual noise of nothing more than 5 players.

On top of obviously filling our keyboards with tons of binds that often don’t add much gameplay value - they just play off each other and make you press different buttons for the sake of it.

The solution is to overhaul the talents to just… take more points for the same amount of talents, or be more stingy with class resources. I know it’s not popular, but it is the only way. There’s no point going after set bonuses like these. They’re SUPPOSED to change the way you play slightly. Otherwise they’re just more boring stats. They are not the problem.

105

You must have posted that graph with the raid % over 10 times now throughout various forum posts. I bet you’ve printed that out on some paper and put it under your pillow before you go to bed.

Please explain what bills exactly are you talking about because you’re making 0 sense.

1 Like
106

DF Prot warrior:

  1. Cast Avatar on cooldown
  2. Cast Demoralizing Shout on cooldown only with Booming Voice
  3. Cast Ravager
  4. Cast Thunderous Roar
  5. Cast Shield Charge
  6. Cast Slam on cooldown
  • It can be reset anytime you cast Devastate, Thunder Clap, Revenge or Execute, so watch out for these procs
  1. Cast Thunder Clapon cooldown
  2. Cast Execute if you do not need Rage for survivability
  3. Cast Revenge, if you do not need Rage for survivability

VS wrath prot warrior

  1. Shield Slam when Shield Block is active — Thanks to Shield Block doubling your Block Value and allowing Shield Slam to bypass the Block Value cap on your Shield Slam damage, you will want to prioritize using it over Revenge in a pure single-target situation while your Shield Block is active.
  2. Revenge Revenge is your highest-damage ability thanks to Improved Revenge and is only slightly behind Shield Slam in terms of threat generation. Seeing as Revenge has a low Rage cost, low cooldown, hits 2 targets, and deals very high damage, you will want to use this every time it is available.
  3. Shield Slam Icon — Whenever your Shield Block (is not active you will prioritize using Shield Slam after Revenge as the damage Revenge deals is simply too high to pass on using.
  4. Shockwave scales very well by utilizing 75% of your Attack Power, which is more than any other ability. This means it becomes a powerful ability to use in single-target situations as you become more geared. At around 3,500 Attack Power you will want to prioritize using Shockwave over Devastate ven against a single enemy.
  5. Devastate — Devastate is mostly a rotation filler. The talent Sword and Board gives Devastatea 30% chance to reset the cooldown of Shield Slam, reducing how many times you will use Devastate as a filler.
  6. Heroic Strike — Lastly, you want to use Heroic Strike whenever you are above 60 Rage to prevent yourself from wasting Rage.

So much simpler !!! WOAW !!

107

I think the how many buttons to press is a lot depending on class, I for example tried to play shadow priest, and the ammount of buttons I need to press felt overwhelming, offcourse this most likely have to do due to me also playing Bm hunter whom do have buttons to press, but the rotation is way easier, than many other classes also.

108

I dont disagree that atleast the 4p bonus adds another level of complexity, but thats also what makes them interesting as opposed to a just flat damage increase or nothing.
I guess we can agree that we all want set bonuses, but if they look like your spell x deal 10% more damage they are kinda boring.

I only have a good understanding of how arms warrior works which I guess isnt the most comlicated spec so I might be a bit biased.
That being said its also a very personal thing, I think its in a very good spot complexity wise, less would make it a bit boring for me. And im far far away from being a top player, I dont even have a guild.

Also, I dont know if this has been said somewhere but the participation argument is nonsense in my opinion. The raid is fairly easy, the biggest challenge in them are not the bosses but having a grp that doesnt just want a quick item grab for free.

Also why do the raids and go through the endless problems caused by people when you can just run M+ and get far better rewards. There is no point to raid unless you want to see the content, gear wise you are way way better off doing M+.
+16 are not harder than Heroic but give you better gear and cause less group problems.

2 Likes
109

Weve seen what happen when blizzard designs the game for lazy people (you op) losing tier artfiacts legendaries etc. so no keep it as it is now challenging content is a good thing and why i personally and I’m sure a-lot of people play the game.

1 Like
110

What do you mean?

The features you speak of were expansion systems/features that were removed at the close of the expansion and replaced in subsequent expansions with alternative systems/legendaries which has happened every expansion.

111

If you make raiding m+ etc too easy the good players will quit. Op just doesn’t want to put effort into wow like alot of people in df ive seen

1 Like
112

You do not realise that what you are saying is the pro gamer pov.

Catalyst not opening sooner only hurts normal players. Pro gamers do split runs and funnel all tier to their main characters. It’s a futile effort.
In reality what happens is normal players get no tier sets before the catalyst is out because of the dumb group loot system so pro gamers had an easier time doing what i just described.

Valor is capped to prevent the pro gamers from progressing too fast. Normal players don’t have high ilvl pieces to upgrade and the amount of valor does not scale so they are constantly behind. It does not in now way “help contain the ilvl gap”. Normal players can’t spend their valor and end up saving it for many weeks in the future when they can get a piece of gear that is worth upgrading.

That is just delusion. There were countless nerfs to Antorus and to Vault. They ALWAYS do this. They release the raids overtuned for the world first and later nerf them multiple times. You are simply lying.

Another pov of the pro-gamer. What about those that are not meta? Screw them right? They are not worth respect. No, the ones that are meta and already got their achievements are the ones we should worry a lot about. Cause they are not done with their characters due to the handicap they got and can’t try something else am i right? Oh poor fire on the move reroller. He will never recover.

Irrelevant. I did not argue that. Indeed they should make them easier for the average player and not have things like WA’s be required to be competitive.

All levels of difficult have increased. The number of mechanics in raids and dungeons increases with every expansion. Get real.

113

make lfr and normal raid very easy.
Heroic also reasonably easy.
then, for my sake, they can make mythic insanely hard, so that the few elites who are there can have fun with it, and then make it so hard that even they will have their problems.

Mythic raid must also have a gear level that matches how difficult it is, so there is still something to go after.
But it must be so hard that even those who are elite will still have to spend a really long time to complete :slight_smile:
and then give them some good gear level loot to make up for the hassle, and that level must be well above the highest you can get from m+ dungeons

114

Yet they still join pugs. Expecting puggers to have the same tier sets as them and be on the same levels as them. And freak out like their world just broke if puggers aren’t on par as them. (talking about those who have the meta and tier sets here)

If people are already pro players with a set group. then join mythics pugs expecting the same play as they do with their friends… then Don’t get that and are still toxic.

They are just :poop: people. Put them on ignore and you will never have to play with them again. Lots of addons to make your ingore list infinite too if your a pugger… And dont want to deal with toxic tanks and healers. Who are used too ‘‘the better’’ when doing pugs.

115

The entire revival Catalyst charges debate shows how insane everything at Blizzard is right now.

Back in Legion Blizzard were such chads: Oh yeah, we are going to have random BiS legendaries drop from any content in the game. Who cares if some ´´competitive player´´ cries because they didn´t get their BiS leggo?

Blizzard in Dragonflight: So here we are writing 10 paragraphs about how we have wasted weeks to come up with the most fair version of acquisition of tier-sets so the top 1 % of raiders, M+ players and PvPers don´t scream at us or write angry Discord messages about how disappointed they are in us :disappointed_relieved: :disappointed_relieved:

It´s even funnier because they pretend they are communicating with the WoW ´´community´´, when we all know they are just talking directly to the Top WoW creators like Max or the Method guys.

Imagine Jeff Kaplan feeling like he would have to explain design decisions to Kungen roflmao.

116

Hahahahaha… any evidence for this? This is just absurd, seems what ever you’re not happy with, “pro players” has to be blamed for it…

No one that i know of like the late catalyst. But blizzard want players to engage with the raid before allowing us to get tier outside raid and vault.

As for over tuned raids? Maybe because they dont want another Emerald Nightmare sitiuation… You remember how silly that was?

Not sure how you blame valor on pro gamers… i doubt its logic.

Personal loot question… all the pro gamers wanted was the lifting of trading restriction or the OPTION for master loot ect… not their fault bliz did group loot only, and then only for raid.

And no major meta shakeups? Have you been playing the last few tiers? Like what?

1 Like
117

His flawed reasoning misses a major point which is the following : those so called “pro gamers” are also being slown down by Blizzard silly decisions. I mean, nobody would benefits from Valor cap or late catalyst…

1 Like
118

Yea… well, we know it’s not logic he used anyway… i bet if he strikes out with a girl, the pro players are to blame for that as well :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Should blame the pro players for rings of power as well while we’re at it.

And that i have to work overtime today… damn those pro players! Making me work over time…! It’s not right.

119

I blame Method for my bad internet !

1 Like
120

Why ofc! Who else could be to blame?!

121

Echo. I mean, it’s in their name ! And echoes are in fact bad for internet waves !

122

I don’t understand how these tier sets are ‘complex’… There boring as hell.