Suggestions to change M+

Community General Discussion
41

same like majority never hc raids or never rated pvp .

because they are not good enough.

and just like people fail +15 with like 400 itlv this week next week they will still fail +15 even when they will farm up all the vp to get themsleves to 411 itlv.

because they dont have skills to complete it.

hardmodes in game were always a niche activity .

i cannot speak for others - but i can tell you that atm i have way much more fun leveling my 10 alts to max level thtough normal dungeons then doing even 1 x 16 + for weekly GV.

why ? because its fun easy mindless fun .

and when i weight my options - do i want to push for like 18s to maaaybe upgrade gear by those extra few itlv - im like nah … it i rather level up alts and farm some transmogs in old raids till the end of season which will reset gear anyway and give catch up gear for my alts.

42

Well, speaking for my group. We blasted the +15’s on tournament realm this weekend since we had the gear. Of the same dungeons we had to walk out last week becauase we couldnt kill the bosses on +16 (RLP). Ilvl is going to carry pretty far. We needed multiple tries on jade serpent +15 on live and just timed it. On tournament realm we were about 15 minutes in time :joy: Gear is king in this game.

43

Yes, a lot would change. Most obviously, mistakes matter less and there isnt a time pressure. But also, you can replace leavers. You can have individual loot on bosses and trash, because there isnt a timer. Lots of things can improve. And again, you havent said why the timer is good.

44

itwould matter exacktly the same

the same people who bail on run woudl still bail because they woudl still refuse to carry baddies for free or they cba to spend 2 hours in a dungeon that shoudl take 30 minutes tops.

45

timed nature affects design of encounters and creates toxic environment, cause one persons mistake can ruin the run for others.

no puzzle/variable type content or slower, but longer paths, no options for making boss designs, that allow slower and safer options etc.

46

Why make M+ when you don’t like them?
If you want to play relaxed and deplete all the runs, go ahead, but between friends and guild who are experts in this, you don’t get into the pugs to ruin the game of others.

47

I like 5 man dungeons and I like scaleable difficulty. I dont like the M+ format specifically. There is absolutely no reason you cannot have non trivial 5 man content without a timer.

itwould matter exacktly the same

the same people who bail on run woudl still bail because they woudl still refuse to carry baddies for free or they cba to spend 2 hours in a dungeon that shoudl take 30 minutes tops.

This is clearly false. You dont get the same issues with megadungeons, and you didnt get these issues in TBC heroics, which at the time were pretty hard.

Many of the problems with mythic+ - the fact that you only get anything at all if you finish, the fact you cannot replace leavers and the fact that you MUST rush and the inherently antisocial, stress and potential toxicity this entails - are a direct consequence of it being timed.

48

I am not entirely sure but i took a break for 6 years and came back to WoW in January. Since then i’ve been healing on my druid, being completly new to the class, role and dungeons. I pugged the majority of my keys timed or not as a casual, only doing LFR and normal raids. By chance i was invited to a heroic raid once from my guild and they gave me several items which they didnt need anymore.
By any means, i still can’t see any elitism or toxic behaviour in the community, nor did i expirience any of it. Yes i was declined here and there but that was mainly because my highest completed key was 3 levels lower than the one i signed up for.

Based on my expirience and seeing tons of keys in the tool daily, i don’t really understand why you claim that the majority of people didnt want this.
Regarding your question i must say that you contradict yourself now because you want to force something on the entire playerbase as well.

It’s your opinion and that’s fine but i disagree with having a third dungeon focused system because the timer is too stressfull or people are not willing to put in some effort.

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49

If you have never had your keystone burned by an inconsiderate player leaving for no good reason, you are lucky. I dont know what key levels you are trying to pug, but if you arent a tank or healer and its some else’s key, expect them to say no unless your score demonstrates you are able to do somewhat more difficult dungeons than the content in question. I dont really blame players for this. When I had my weekly +15s in Legion or BFA, there was no reason for me not to be choosey, because you are spoilt for choice.

And yes, people play mythic+. That doesnt mean they enjoy the timer specifically. You might just want the gear upgrades, you might want to play 5 mans without the enemy HP pools and damage being ridiculously undertuned for your ilevel.

When players are given a choice between running timed content for its own sake, they usually dont. What is the timer actually adding to the experience? The problems it causes are very obvious.

50

I am aiming for +15s this week on every dungeon and i don’t mind spending a 2nd week on completing my goal. I see it as progression and with more expirience and better gear i will also get into higher keys eventually.

And yes i had my key burned because someone left after a wipe, annoying but there are hundreds of other groups i can apply to join. I still don’t consider it toxic because i don’t know the reason why that player left and i will never know unless they say something beforehand.

I can only speak for myself and i can assure you that i usually ignore the timer until we reach the last boss of a dungeon. I had several keys in the last weeks that i didnt make in time and there were a few cases, less than 5, where someone left. Most of them were still completed and everyone got something out of it, even if it was just the expirience.

The timer is an extra layer of challenge. It may be irrelevant for some but others surely enjoy completing a +X in time. If you don’t have the timer then it’s just a matter of time until you complete it. There are no problems with the timer. You just don’t like it.

Besides that, I assert that you are going to have even more people leaving groups because it is taking too long which brings me back to the general advice of finding players or guildies to do the content with.
Seeing tons of people leaving LFR or normal raid groups or dungeon groups (not m+), i think my assumption is not too far away from what will happen without the timer.

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51

There are problems with the timer. I have spelt them out repeatedly above. Maybe you think the merits of the timer (about which you give no specifics) outweigh the drawbacks, but it is unreasonable to pretend there are no drawbacks.

It absolutely discourages taking your time and speaking with party members.

It clearly makes the experience more stressful, because even silly mistakes that can easily be corrected are consequential.

Like it or not, leaving is hardly all that rare and in M+, that’s the end of your run. Everyone gets absolutely nothing out of it.

And it fundamentally changes dungeon design. Compare Return to Karazan in the first week it was released to the mythic+ versions. Regardless of which you prefer, you cannot honestly claim they are very similar experiences. And for my money, the original was a FAR more epic and fun experience than the mythic+.

As for there still being leavers without the timer, firstly, I never claimed there wouldn’t, but rather, it will be far less of an issue if there are. Secondly, people will be much less inclined to leave over a single wipe or other mistake.

52

Let me quote someone from another thread on the same topic, regarding the timer and people leaving which i agree with a 100%.

To the problems you mentioned. I am not sure which ones you mean or if i missed any but this is what i found:

Yes absolutly! People are trying to find like minded players to achieve their goal. Run the dungeon in time. You can’t expect others to have your mentality when their goals differ from yours. That’s not a timer problem but a difference in player goals. The Timer adds a significant portion of the challenge.

Yes and Mythic + is probably not the place to chat while you are on a timer. You can chit chat after or before that. I had several tanks, mages, hunters or shamans asking when to bloodlust and tanks posting their MDT route for everyone. General strategies can be learned in normal mythic dungeons and shouldn’t be a topic anymore when you joined a +15 key. Also not a problem of the timer but more like a question of what to do and when to do things?
On the other hand i also had a few guild runs where we had a lot of fun on discord.

Wrong. I take myself and my expirience as an example here and i failed more than i ever wished for.

Fun is not objective, it’s subjective and surely not a reason to remove it.
Your opinion is not wrong though.
Define “casual” because it’s as subjective as “fun” is and it depends with what you compare it with.

Yes that’s the whole point of a timer and yes mistakes should have consequences otherwise it wouldnt be a challenge anymore. The affixes are obviously not your concern here otherwise there would be complaints from you about them.

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53

You want to compare M+ with something people basically only played once. In the first week it was released. It wasn’t replayable content. Don’t get me wrong, i am not against content like that. I had tons of fun in my 1 kara run. Good memories. Took around 7 hours and we had dinner in between. Will never forget.

54

But as per my first post, I dont want compensatory difficulty to be added. I want the experience to be about as hard as capping ilevel in Legion, which was quite a lot easier than in the last 2 xpacs, and likely dragonflight as well. Players should have options to push above and beyond this, but wow is not and never should be an esport. Tools like RIO should not feel remotely necessary for getting the equivalent of heroic raid gear, and 1 welfare mythic piece per week.

And removing of the timer may allow cheese to deal with trash, but it wont allow you to cheese boss fights, unless you want to BL every single attempt which is really tedious. The post you quote is simply wrong when it says it breaks difficulty scaling. The difficulty scaling beyond the 3rd affix is just number inflation. The timer is in no way a necessary part of this.

On the contrary, the constraint of the timer itself gives rise to a huge amount of cheese. Ever seen an MDI? Its very frequent to see cheese in that setting, because its mandatory to keep your time competitive.

And yes, risk aversion IS a problem exacerbated by the timer and key depletion. If you didnt have to worry about a key and not being able to replace party members, there would be a much lesser risk to be averse too. Denying that the timer has anything to do with this is manifestly wrong.

As for player goals, in pugs, its to get the reward for completing the dungeon. Trust me, people arent running their weekly +15 or now +20s because chiefly for the satisfaction of beating the timer. You are way off the mark here. The timer is the problem, not misaligned player goals.

And in megadungeons, you can actually enjoy the experience of group content, not feel like you have to be businesses like and focussed for 20-30 mins without pause. The fact that you can chill either side of the run doesnt change the impact the timer is having on the dungeon experience itself.

And no, its not wrong people dont want to take a chance on someone without having high RIO score. The person whose key it is doesnt know you or owe you any favours. Other things being equal, why would they take the ostensibly worse player when they have plenty of choices?

And timers dont just make things more challenging, they make things more punishing. The two things are distinct. World first raiders are overcoming a much larger challenge than a +20, but if someone makes a dumb mistake, they arent heavily punished for it. In M+, you are.

You want to compare M+ with something people basically only played once. In the first week it was released. It wasn’t replayable content. Don’t get me wrong, i am not against content like that. I had tons of fun in my 1 kara run. Good memories. Took around 7 hours and we had dinner in between. Will never forget.

Its not only once. Without scaling, its not evergreen content, but you can run that until you have no worthwhile gear upgrades. And with the suggestions I outlined, you could scale the difficulty and reward without completely changing the experience.

55

Man, I’ve spent years chasing after like-minded guilds like you, “keys run out even out of time” and you’d be in there like an hour and go trying to finish it knowing the group was poor and if you didn’t participate in this , the GM and officers no longer invited you to the raid. Obviously the gm and the officers all went together to do the m+ in a single group and never stooped to go and help the others.
Finally, after years of stress behind these idiocies, I’ve detached myself and play alone, both in raid and in m+ without being forced to boost anyone. If you look, under my avatar is the name of a guild… It’s the only guild out of 300 where guildmen play on their own without asking the guild for help. I don’t raid with them because there is no healer place and I don’t want to force anyone to change spec to include me.

After this papyrus, I understand your point of view, but you understand mine too. I’m glad the m+ works like this.
Find like-minded people, there are plenty of them, especially those where you boost guilds for free where the phrase “nobody gets me” follows.

So find players like you and don’t ask for this change, just because that 5% of players like to play without stress or timers.

56

It seems that there is really only one concern which is the fact that players cannot be replaced after they left before the dungeon is completed. That problem starts before the group even entered the dungeon and lines up perfectly with people being cautious on whom to invite, which is also a mentioned problem. (risk aversion)
After all it is never guaranteed that the group will complete the dungeon.

If player goals don’t matter then why are people so picky when it comes to group invites? They want to run their key in time and have the priviledge to choose the people to play with. Nothing new nor wrong about it.

You can observe the exact same behaviour in the raid finder tool for normal and heroic raids. This mentality existed way before the mythic difficulty or mythic + even existed. In fact, it goes back all the way to Classic where people had specific spots for gear inspections to make sure that the player is viable. You needed to have achievements to proof your expirience in the raid, to be viable for gear inspection during cataclysm and hell in guild applications people went above and beyond.

That goes hand in hand. Small mistakes which are usually easily recoverable are puninishing because of the time pressure the whole group is in. That certainly adds to the difficulty aspect.

You could make the arguement that there are other methods of punishing players for their mistakes, however removing the timer would not only remove the punishment but also have significant effects on replayability and on how appealing the content is.

Taking the heroic and normal dungeons as an example and based on my expirience i spent significantly more time in the queue for this kind of content than in mythic +. Normal and Heroic Dungeons are less appealing at some point because players don’t gain anything from them anymore. The same would happen to mythic + as well because the “best” rewards are currently not easily accessible due to the timer, hence players need to spend more time until they don’t gain anything anymore.
The competitive factor also plays a role however that can be ignored because any player can simply ignore their completion time.
I’ll make the assertion that competitive games or content is usually more appealing to players than “casual” content, meaning no competition at all.
Twitch Viewer Numbers on competitive games are usually higher than on single player games without any competition. While Viewer numbers aren’t best representative, it is still one example that competition between players is more appealing and interesting. That goes for players playing the game and people watching it because you obviously need players to have people to stream it.

I think after all it is obvious that our opinions are different and we will disagree on certain points regardless of how much longer we talk :slight_smile:
I am going to head into WoW now and get some keys done… hopefully :smiley:

57

its nearly never " no good reason"

almost always reason is visible and obvious for anyone who has been runing m+ for long time.

want example ? i just joined AV 16 and then 17 . AV 16 key got broken almost imidiately because tank pulled 2 first groups of mobs and healer couldnt handle the dmg. not enough interupts were going out - 2nd try - tank again pulls 2 groups togehter instead separate - ofc 2nd wipe - key was doomed even before owner put it into dungeon . (and no i was not the one who left first although i knew i should have just left mid first wipe )

there was no point contuniuing this dungeon .

joined 17 . we timed it no problem with some minor mistakes.

most of time people just refuse to accept that they are not good for difficulty X.

58

System that can fix this is so simple to make.

  1. Make every player place their own key before M+ is able to launch.
  2. If keys are same M+ level, or some of the keys are lower, finishing dungeon in time will improve every sloted key if its equal or lower to the owner key.
  3. If a player leaves group before timer runs out their key will be deleted, they will have to farm from M0 since they do not own any key anymore and cant play any M+ dungeon.
  4. Do to the fact that one key got deleted leader key will not get depleted even if time runs out.
  5. After person leaves the dungeon, time stops, and until key that is missing is not replaced with some new player key.
  6. Finishing any dungeon, will give you option to replace your key, even if dungeon was not finished in time.

What this does:

  1. Gives group leaders general idea of who may be a bad actor(if a player key is low level, they may be somebody who has a habit of leaving)
  2. Promotes finishing keys for people who want to help others, even if key runs out there is something to look forward to because you can replace key you got.
59

Maybe, just maybe next try you pull less maybe composition rly does not support that rush in playstyle since there is not a lot of CCs?

You tell people what they should do, and finish dungeon or at least give it a try, maybe you can still finish it in time. I can not tell you how many times I finished dungeon in time after some stupid mistake lead to a wipe, it happens higher key goes, more unpredictable stuff can get.

Or sometimes concentration just falls, and people make stupid mistakes.

I understand if somebody constantly is messing stuff, but one wipe does not mean anything especially if its at the start of dungeon.

60

+16 is not difficulty to teach people how to play game.

if they want to learn there are keys like +2 or +5.

if you join +16 you shoudl know every single pull and how most of classes in game operate and synergise.