I am sorry but in most of +5’s you do not even see half of the mechanics. You learn by keylevel and on +16 you should definitely not a pro like you describe.
Are you blind or what?
What DAMN LOOT ARE YOU GETTING THAT U DARE CALING IT LOOT?!
A damn pile of UNLESS MATS m A 1% chance for item drop that Might be good to use AND SOME 40 -50 gold? YOU SPEND MORE ON REPAIR BILL THEN THAT TRASH REWORD
What they need to do is:
- Remove Valor LockCap limit from the start! and just leave the lvl up limit on items that was at start of season.
- Add proper Gold reword from them, not the current DogShi*t from it. We need at least gold reword that can cover its costs. since repair bills can easy go over 500 gold.
If Blizz dose not want to add proper gold reword for its repair cost then make the Mythic plus zone Repair Free of cost, Since you need to repair in them to continue the run till finish. - And lastly remove damn one shots from trash you damn Dev team.
5man content without a timer is trivial by definition simply because, outside of boss encounters, you can break the content into as little pieces as possible and approach them individually, with your full kit available.
Theres a substantial difference in difficulty between what you have now, where you would sometimes pull 3 packs at a time to optimize using your offensive cds and simply because you dont have enough time to kill them one by one, and what you would have if the timer was removed, where not only you wouldnt have to pull all three, but you could do every one of them by ccing most of the mobs and killing the remaining ones one by one.
You also have guaranteed lust on every boss, along with guaranteed minor defensive/ healing cds on pretty much every other mob you kill (if you use CC right) and major ones every pack.
Im really surprised people continue proposing this considering that it takes roughly few minutes to figure out how abusible that kind of system would be on all fronts
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That is total nonsense. The idea you could not make 5 man content MUCH harder than M0s unless you include a timer is manifestly ridiculous.
As for trash, if trash is only difficult 3 packs at a time, you can make dungeons with much larger trash packs. You still dont need a timer. As for your concern that everyone is going to wait on every CD before each trash pull, no they wont. The lack of a timer wont mean people will be happy with extreme tedium.
And if people want to lust every boss, so what? Why is this a problem exactly? You can still have scaling difficulty.
As I say, I have no problem with timed runs existing, I just dont see why it is literally the only non trivial 5 man content. This is completely unnecessary.
“You never banter. Bad wipes means people leave and the entire run was a total waste.”
Search yourself a guild group with like minded people. Yesterday I went with people from my guild, all of us already did a couple of timed ones, it was getting late and all were a bit tired. We went into Azure Vault, died around 50 times and it took us 1.5h to clear. It was hilarious and there was banter all the time in discord ^^
With pugs you can specify that you want to go through a m+ even if not reaching the timer. It simply requires you to communicate before the m+ starts. The once that don’t want that leave and you can replace them. But to be honest I wouldn’t go through 1.5h of wiping with random people that I don’t even talk to even if it was clear from the beginning that it won’t probably be timed. With people I talk to in voice chat and play regularly, it’s a different story. The fun and jokes made it worth it.
Because you clearly don’t understand or don’t want to how m+ even works. Every run, the “pull” starts when you insert the key and ends when you reach the finishing chest.
Deciding on the route, hero usage placement, some affixes demand you to use hero on certain packs of trash and etc.
Your “lust every boss, whats the problem” will water it down to:
pull 1 pack
Hero it
ok lads. 10 min break before next pack
and repeat…
If I wanted to be stuck in an instance for 3 if not more hours… I got my raid nights for that.
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I’d like to see the numbers on your claim @ large majority
Why impose change to dilute another risk v reward system
If the game gets dumbed down any further, you might as well pickup FFXIV
You fail to understand that the problem lies not in making it much more difficult than m0, but in making it scalable.
On a +2 you can get away with killing trash as you go, on a +25 you cant. The difficulty doesnt come from stuff just hitting harder, it comes from having to adapt the entire playstyle to constraints enforced by the environment, most of all the timer. And this is what people apparently like because they go for it season after season.
If you remove the timer the difficulty then goes all over the place, because every trash that required you to adapt your playstyle is now beatable by multiple sorts of degen ways, and only real block is the bosses, that depending on the dungeon may vary from hard to unbeatable on certain difficulties (and its not even about weekly affixes). You end up with a mode that has to be redesigned from the ground up so that the difficulty of both is adequate.
Another issue not largely discussed here is what exactly should be the win condition in an untimed mode, considering that a good player that does +25 and someone like me are both capable of finishing a +22 if degen playstyles are allowed, only it would take me half a day and them half an hour. No way in hell any reasonable designer would allow both of these cases considered a success, now way they would allow the same rewards for that.
Ah another “big” brain M+ reinventor who starts with “remove timer”
GL with that!
I don’t like your idea it’s horrible 
Since i came back in legion and started doing m+ i was declined plenty of time in m+
Never felt like someone is toxic or elitist because i knew that i’m not the only one playing this game people do not wait specifically for me to play with them
This is hard to explain to those gentle flowers out there.
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I know how mythic+ works. No one is going to want to wait 10 minutes between pulls on each trash pack. That is completely ridiculous, and would obviously not be necessary if the ilevel cap was in the range of 10-15 legion difficulty. I timed +15s pretty regularly during legion and BFA so I am quite aware of the basics of the M+ format. It wasnt made more enjoyable by the timer however.
If people want challenge runs, then yes, the timer is necessary to stop this kind of degenerate gameplay. As per my original post, I am happy for challenge modes to exist.
They should just not be the ONLY 5 man content beyond really trivial difficulty levels. This is clearly possible, we get to enjoy this for a brief period of every expansion when a megadungeon releases. Why is it just one dungeon and why is the difficulty of dungeons in this format not scaleable?
You fail to understand that the problem lies not in making it much more difficult than m0, but in making it scalable…
You fail to realise (even though its incredibly obvious) that there is more than one way of making content difficult. I say its incredibly obvious, because megadungeons and raids offer difficulty comfortably in excess of heroics and M0s without a timer.
Perhaps you find carefully strategizing dungeon routes and specific trash pulls fun. I dont, certainly not enough to warrant all the drawbacks inherent in timed runs. I just want individual pulls to feel of a reasonable relative to my gear. I suspect many people in the PUG community would much prefer this.
Again, I have no issue having challenge runs for those who want them. I dont and I am confident many others, if given the choice, would opt to go timer free. What is wrong with us having the choice exactly?
For those denying M+ format produces elitism, currently on the forums:
M+ community is
one of the worst communities ive seen since very long time.
Pugging my way with non meta healer (2988atm,not braging just point out to make my point) to reach 3k is next to impossible with this community full of meta slaves and fotm rerollers.
There is next to 0% chance people around my rio to invite me(atleast thats what is happening),so i push with people 100-200-300 rio below me that got lucky and go a key that i need to improve my rio.
Guess what happen?!?
When ive done all 22s in time this week,somehow everyone stopped inviting me at all.Wating now 10+ hours combined with yesterday expiriance with my lfg,even 200-300 rio people below me dont want to invite me.
This community is rotten inside.Im so done with M+ after i reach my goal.
PS: I really like Dragonflight
That is the experience of obviously a competent player pugging. Why cant he get groups? Because the timer makes people too risk averse.
thats the point though, if you restructure the rewards so that theyre capped on this low level, you essentially created the same kind of issue megadungeons have - theyre dead content few weeks after being introduced because they themselves dont offer enough gear progression.
I wouldn’t consider FFXIV dumbed down. The dungeons are completly boring yes, but the savage raids and ultimates are equally hard as mythic raid bosses.
No they arent “dead” content. The difficult still scales each tier and people will continue to play the content. Any reasonable ilevel cap you set is going be at a level of difficulty some people find easy. Adding in a timer doesnt change that at all.
The reason why megadungeons dont have great longevity is that A) they are a single dungeon and B) their difficulty is fixed, not scaling and the quality of gear dropped is never BIS outside of unique effects. Yes, a single dungeon that becomes increasingly trivial and quickly ceases to offer any upgrades is something you will stop playing fairly quickly. Again, the lack of a timer isnt the issue here.
If m+ wasn’t such a loot pinnata then most wont even bother with m+. Your so called PUG community just wants gear with least effort possible. Blizz did try to adress that and bring m+ in line with raid and rPvP. Did cause a seperate topic about “Casual’s Where is muh 421 weapon from +15??!?!?!?!” but thats a different story.
Because m+ is different. Same as raids and rPvP. You pretty much just want a mini-raid.
Its impossible to cater to absolutely every whim and Blizz shouldn’t not do it anyway. Attempt to please all and you will please none.
And please stop with that “muh choice” thingy already. There are already multiple choices as it is. Blizz will not tailor-make WoW to suit you personally.
I dislike rPvP cause it seems to stressfull for me. By your logic:
“I dont like PvP cause its too stresfull but I want the elite pvp gear reward from it. BlIZZ!! Give ma PvE mode where I fight bots!” GIVE ME MUH CHOICE! 
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I agree that they are not dead content but they get less appealing to players that focus on character and gear progression, hence over time you’ll have less groups to to apply for.
You misunderstood my previous comment.
Problem with the ‘megadungeon effect’ is that if the rewards are capped low enough, the content is relevant only for a portion of time and then the participation drops, even if the rewards were fine before.
If you apply that kind of cap low enough in m+, then even if the difficulty is still scaling, you will have a drop of participation after people are bored doing their weekly 10s for max rewards, you will also have to properly apply difficulty to higher levels because the mode itself wont provide you gear necessary to beat much higher levels than the cutoff point.
Then theres also ‘raid or die’ effect that forces you to do all that while considering how much better HC/ mythic raid rewards would be, and if youre not forcing anyone that wants to push higher keys into raiding/ pvp because you’ve capped the rewards of the mode itself.
you seem to be so blindsided by the timer thing that you didnt understand a thing of what that dude was saying lol
I am not asking for “elite gear”, though I think 1 tier above your current content from the weekly chest is fine. Its one piece of gear a week and realistically, its probably 20+ weeks before you would fill every slot this way. That’s fine, you are way behind elite PVPers or mythic raiders.
I do think +15 should offer heroic raid level rewards, because heroic raids arent actually significantly harder than +15s. They are just more hassle.
And the rationale “M+ is different” isnt any kind of an argument at all. Its just a statement. It doesnt explain why the only 5 man content above M0 is in the constraints of the M+ format. Interesting 5 man content without timers has existed in all recent expansions (megadungeons) and it was the norm pre MOP (where they completed shafted dungeons for crappy scenarios). Magister’s Terrace heroic was very hard for 5 man pugs without raid gear (and far fewer people raided back then), and that was an end of expansion dungeon.
And why the hell should I stop with asking for choices? Your arrogance to insist that the game modes offered should only be those that you like is breath taking. The analogy with pvp is moronic. PVP doesnt exist without enemy players. Dungeons and scalable difficulty can obviously exist without a timer.
I am not even asking for something that would be any significant amount of dev time. Just have per boss and trash loot drops, 3 tiers of M+ with the difficulties tuned to be between current M+ 2-5, 6-9 and 10-15, a weekly lockout for each and turn off the timer. Everything I am asking for mechanically already exists.
And you can leave the timed versions with no weekly lockout and scaling as high as you like. No complaints. But why not accommodate people who dont like this when doing so wouldnt even take significant effort?
Because you are bloody minded, that’s why. You want M+ to be as hard as is comfortable for you, so you can feel superior to those who arent inclined to play in premade groups.
Because he’s in the top 1% where the top players want meta classes for the hardest content, i cant believe how this would be hard to understand. They would want meta classes regardless of a timer.