Suggestions to change M+

[Tarvas-the-shatar]

BS. They would be perfectly happy with someone who demonstrably can do the content, particularly a healer, if there wasnt a timer. It is specifically the timer that makes people so risk averse. There is a reason RIO didnt even exist until advent of M+.

And by the way, as I am sure you know very well, this crap is an issue WAY before this level of M+. Players have ZERO incentive to take anyone but the best combination class and RIO score available. WoW is a hobby, not a profession. RIO shouldnt even be a thing for weekly 5 mans.

[Bäumchän-blackhand]

@Tarvas-the-shatar

I do think +15 should offer heroic raid level rewards, because heroic raids arent actually significantly harder than +15s. They are just more hassle.

For +15s you already get 398s from drops and 411s in the weekly chest. Isn’t that heroic raid quality?

[Tarvas-the-shatar]

No, its way below heroic raid. Having 1 weekly chest item a week at HC level, but all the dungeon drops themselves be garbage is silly. The drops themselves should excite players.

[Dejarous-draenor (Dejarous)]

@Tarvas-the-shatar

There is a reason RIO didnt even exist until advent of M+.

Before that there was gearscore etc etc.

Stop twisting reality to suit your narrative.

[Alnyra-burning-legion]

@Tarvas-the-shatar

I do think +15 should offer heroic raid level rewards, because heroic raids arent actually significantly harder than +15s.

They arent significantly harder than +15s now, they would be significantly harder than trivialized nontimed keys of that level.

[Bäumchän-blackhand]

Heroic raid gear is 402 which is in between of 398 and 411. I don’t see the why m+ should be superior over raids when it comes to loot. Raid lockouts are weekly, just like the vault is.

[Tarvas-the-shatar]

I resubbed less than a week ago, so I havent checked, but my weekly for the 4 mythic dungeons gave a 408 piece of gear, and its heroic quality. 10 ilevels below HC for +15 seems pretty stingy. Even if its a half tier above for 1 of the last 2 bosses, I really dont see why the dungeon drops cannot be the same rather than a bit below HC. If the ilevel difference is 3, why not just make them the same. Dont really care either way though if its at least comparable.

[Bäumchän-blackhand]

@Tarvas-the-shatar

but my weekly for the 4 mythic dungeons gave a 408 piece of gear, and its heroic quality.

That means your lowest key you ran that week was either a +13 or +14.

[Tarvas-the-shatar]

No, I mean the weekly event. It was 1 M+2 and 3 M0s.

[Bäumchän-blackhand]

You mean chest you get from the weekly quest?

Yeah… no that should not equal to heroic raid gear…

[Tarvas-the-shatar]

Yes it does, and thats been true in prior expansions also. Dungeon week always offered a HC piece.

[Alnyra-burning-legion]

@Tarvas-the-shatar

I mean the weekly event

its a dungeon event, happening roughly every 9-10 weeks (and for that reason basically irrelevant when it comes to gearing). Calling it ‘weekly’ is misleading.

[Tarvas-the-shatar]

No, its not misleading. There is an event each week. This week its dungeon week, it involved completing 4 mythics, what else could I be referring to?

[Tsjoh-argent-dawn (Tsjoh)]

Anyway; it is quite irrelevant for the discussion. This quest happens once every blue moon and it has nothing to do with M+.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Tarvas-the-shatar

And why the hell should I stop with asking for choices? Your arrogance to insist that the game modes offered should only be those that you like is breath taking. The analogy with pvp is moronic. PVP doesnt exist without enemy players. Dungeons and scalable difficulty can obviously exist without a timer.

Because you already got the choice. Find 4 minded people and you can clear the said run in 3 hours for all I care. Nobody is stopping you from it. There is no rule which says how much time you need to spend in a m+.
So your method of doing said run is available right there without any dev involvement right now.

@Tarvas-the-shatar

And why the hell should I stop with asking for choices? Your arrogance to insist that the game modes offered should only be those that you like is breath taking. The analogy with pvp is moronic. PVP doesnt exist without enemy players. Dungeons and scalable difficulty can obviously exist without a timer.

Because people will never stop asking for more. Its either a buff to their main class or a specific gaming mode/mission which benefits their playstyle and etc. They are resilient to be moved outside their comfort area…but sometimes you have to man up and play with the cards you are dealt with.

@Tarvas-the-shatar

Because you are bloody minded, that’s why. You want M+ to be as hard as is comfortable for you, so you can feel superior to those who arent inclined to play in premade groups.

I don’t have rio 3.0 and my main just barely got into pugging +20s now. I never claimed to be some m+ hotshot or CE raider. Nor do I feel any form superior. Also 80% of my runs are with random pugs so don’t go on tell me on how its difficult to get into a pug run as sole dps.
Yet when I decided to play m+ solo(as in not in a pre-made team), I was also fully aware of what I was getting into. Still by slow crawl, I am eventually progressing.

Yet being an super average scrub with 2.5k non CE raider. I never had even the thought that I should demand that Blizz “piggy-back” me to +20s or give me CE because…uhmm… I pay the sub too?

[Magiola-darksorrow]

@Tarvas-the-shatar

There is a reason RIO didnt even exist until advent of M+.

Before that point the connection between content and ilvl was more imminent. Therefore checking ilvl, gearscore or a single achievement could indicate whether you are familiar with the content or not.

M+ kind of had a new issue in that area. One can do dungeon A on +10…that says quite little for other dungeons. Or one can be Heroic geared and totally fail in M+. Heck, it even depends on the affixes.

In the end systems to indicate if you know the drill have existed since the dawn of time. Yes, M+ introduced a new metric - but let’s not pretend that this was unique.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Magiola-darksorrow

Before that point the connection between content and ilvl was more imminent. Therefore checking ilvl, gearscore or a single achievement could indicate whether you are familiar with the content or not.

And even before then it was “Come to AH or Bank for inspect!”. People will always use some kind metric to measure pugs. Rio is simply the latest method before somebody else thinks up something better.

[Magiola-darksorrow]

I had almost forgotten about those times, thanks for the reminder

[Tarvas-the-shatar]

Aside from the impracticality of finding people who fully intend to fail the timer (no one wants to do this), you are then down to 40% chance of getting anything and you go backwards not forwards in terms of key levels. I want a per boss loot experience. I dont want to try and make a timed format untimed when the game specifically punishes you for doing this, giving less loot and downgrading your key. Your proposed “choice” is bloody stupid and you know it. It doesnt meet what I am asking for at all and you are obviously being disingenuous.

And saying “because people never stop asking for more” is as vacuous an argument as your “M+ is different”. Yes, people will always be dissatisfied about something. That is no argument against a particular suggestion, otherwise you would never change anything ever.

Nothing, literally nothing you have said explains why it is unreasonable to leave the timed M+ format for those who want it and RESTORE relevant 5 mans in a non timed format for those who dont, which by the way, was the case the majority of WOW’s lifespan and all the coding is already there. They just need to implement it. It would be a heck of a lot less work than utter crap like scenario, island expeditions, warfronts and so on. This would make the game better for a lot of players, do nothing to hurt the players who like current M+ and be a comparatively minimal time investment for the devs. So why are you so hostile to it?

And I am not asking to be “given” +20s. I am asking for a 5 man content format that isnt obviously hostile to the social and gameplay experiences of pugs and which actively promoted elitism to the point where it was routine, for a weekly +15, to have to use a third party website and update the database regularly just to be able to form a group. This is a ridiculous state of affairs.

Before that point the connection between content and ilvl was more imminent. Therefore checking ilvl, gearscore or a single achievement could indicate whether you are familiar with the content or not.

M+ kind of had a new issue in that area. One can do dungeon A on +10…that says quite little for other dungeons. Or one can be Heroic geared and totally fail in M+. Heck, it even depends on the affixes.

In the end systems to indicate if you know the drill have existed since the dawn of time. Yes, M+ introduced a new metric - but let’s not pretend that this was unique.

Alot of it was actually due to titanforging making ilevel a much worse proxy for skill. But the main reason RIO took off was due to the massively increased penalty for taking a bad player, such that people were prepared to go to significantly greater lengths to screen pug applicants. If you could just get a replacement and you didnt have to worry about getting no gear and downgrading your key, its far less of an issue to take a perceived risk. Is a matter of degree, RIO is much more elitist and toxic than what proceeded it.

[Magiola-darksorrow]

@Tarvas-the-shatar

This is a ridiculous state of affairs.

In the end this is the result of players being too bad for the content they sign up for. If everyone pulled their own weight in pugs, the need for these tools wouldn’t be so big.