Its not though. The orc shaman I quoted above clearly isnt, but he is getting rejected anyway. What it is is a format that is excessively punishing for failure, thus making people way more risk averse.
And independent of that issue, you are still converting 3-5 boss drops and trash drops into one (fairly stingy) chest, making the experience far less relaxed and completely non social in pugs.
I do honestly think the experience youâre looking for will only be found in wow classic. Or join a guild and casually raid. Blizzard is not going to change anything.
Hes been accepted enough to get to a hair under 3k. A fact you conveniently look past.
Another fact you look past is 3k isnât âpugâ territory, its premade territory. Hes had the tools at his disposal for the past 8 weeks to make like minded contacts.
A 1 time event for a whole expac once you got gold and best timeâs it was done.
Plenty of weekly non timed runs out there. Just have to actually look. And people have made long runs before. I remember our guild discord having a laugh about a 2h AV run. And since I cant link rio run links, you can just check it yourself, many 1-2h runs as well.
Point being. Like I said. Find 4 people who agree for a weekly run and you set.
And you still get the loot in the end, gvault slot and etc.
No raid boss will ever allow you to slowly kill it for 3 hours since most will enrage anywayâŚor after wiping 3 hours on it to give you a âyou triedâ reward.
Cause you are literally asking for either a mini raid or dumbed down m+ version. Want a non timed environment, then raid and problem solved.
Also as other people have said it. You also risk upsetting the delicate reward balance. Make your â5 man mini raidâ reward too low gear and nobody will bother to do it after 1-2 weeks, make it too competitive and you force raiders, m+ runners, rPvP guys into it as well cause then they will âhaveâ to do it to stay competitive in their areas. Its already a pain for m+ runners to raid to get their tier sets(before catalyst) and to some classes/specs bis trinkets. Wont even talk about what the PvP guys have to do.
And here you come, demanding a 5 man mini raid where you can just hero at every pack and get a free 421 item for your troubles? You would be mad to skip that.
And I honestly think you are totally wrong. The experience could certainly be helped by an easy to implement change which no one has actually explained any downsides of. This doesnt need to be to the exclusive of timed runs. It can just be in addition to.
Hes been accepted enough to get to a hair under 3k. A fact you conveniently look past.
Another fact you look past is 3k isnât âpugâ territory, its premade territory. Hes had the tools at his disposal for the past 8 weeks to make like minded contacts.
I am not âconvenientlyâ looking past the fact. He is complaining about people with entirely comparable scores to him rejecting him. This is now totally normal: keyholders will expect to be carried by players better than they are. No timer, no keys, no huge downside to a player not performing, and people will stop behaving this way.
A 1 time event for a whole expac once you got gold and best timeâs it was done.
And if there had actually been any significant appetite for timed runs in of themselves, do you think they wouldnt have bothered developing it?
Lets be honest, if people were given the choice between timed and not timed, other things being equal, the large majority will pick not timed. For most players, it needs to be incentivised. At the moment, its the only challenging 5 man content with relevant rewards that there is.
Cause you are literally asking for either a mini raid or dumbed down m+ version. Want a non timed environment, then raid and problem solved.
Also as other people have said it. You also risk upsetting the delicate reward balance. Make your â5 man mini raidâ reward too low gear and nobody will bother to do it after 1-2 weeks, make it too competitive and you force raiders, m+ runners, rPvP guys into it as well cause then they will âhaveâ to do it to stay competitive in their areas. Its already a pain for m+ runners to raid to get their tier sets(before catalyst) and to some classes/specs bis trinkets. Wont even talk about what the PvP guys have to do.
And here you come, demanding a 5 man mini raid where you can just hero at every pack and get a free 421 item for your troubles? You would be mad to skip that.
Firstly, the supposed problem you outline is BS. The great vault is once a week. I am not proposing that running a non timed M+ format should give you additional picks or superior ilevel to any of the alternative ways of filling out the great vault. If you do the timed M+ format, you should have no incentive to do the non timed as well, unless you cannot clear the timed by can clear the non timed. And if so, I really dont care about moderately worse players getting access to 1 high ilevel piece of gear a week. Why do you care?
And again you are being totally disingenuous. RAIDS are not a reasonable alternative for someone who pugs because - as I have already stated - I dont want to have a schedule for a hobby. Raids are much worse than M+ in this regard.
And you STILL have provided no explanation as to how anyone who likes M+ in its current iteration would be disadvantaged by the change in any way. There is only one way you would be disadvantaged and that is if everyone flocked to the alternative, making it harder to find timed runs.
So either I am right and most people would prefer the traditional dungeon format, not the M+ format in which case, the majority should be accommodated, or I am wrong and you wont be affected, in which case, the minority should be accommodated, because its not a large use of dev resources and no one else is being disadvantaged.
The only other alternative is, even though it doesnt actually affect you, you just dont like this option existing ie. you are being bloody minded. So which is it?
Not because they like your âmethodâ more but because its the best reward for least effort. Path of least resistance. Similar story with early SL where gearing up via PvP became the most efficient method⌠and surprise surprise there was suddenly an influx of players there⌠and
let me guess the PvE dragon slayers suddently discovered that they are PvP fans and went to PvPâŚam I right? /sarcasm off
+15 is still easier then HC raids though . for sure easier then later bosses in HC. plus its famrable infinetly .
not sure what you complain baout though - if you complete 15s even untimed you have enugh score to upgrade all your gear to 411 with VP.
raids loose in this regard becuse for god only know what reason raid doesnt drop VP and raid gear is not upgradable - which is idiotic imo .
Well obviously they do prefer the âmethodâ because thatâs the one they chose. Thatâs like saying difficulty settings in a single player game shouldnt exist because people will choose the path of least resistance. Which isnt true by the way. People clearly dont exclusively play their single player games on the easiest difficulty, because a degree of difficulty is necessary for the gameplay to be fun. +15 with the timer would still offer enough difficulty to be engaging gameplay for plenty of people. And those who like greater challenges for its own sake WILL STILL HAVE IT. And to throw your point back at you, I dont really care if you find such runs harder to pug âJust find 4 other like minded playersâ. Problem solved. Group formation should be the most inconvenient for those with the minority preference, not the other way around.
+15 is still easier then HC raids though . for sure easier then later bosses in HC. plus its famrable infinetly .
not sure what you complain baout though - if you complete 15s even untimed you have enugh score to upgrade all your gear to 411 with VP.
raids loose in this regard becuse for god only know what reason raid doesnt drop VP and raid gear is not upgradable - which is idiotic imo .
Personally, I dont like the upgrade system. I like gear to be useable when it drops. But if it remains, sure, raid gear should be upgradeable.
As for infinitely farmable gear, as per the OP, I proposed weekly lockouts for the non timed runs. Personally, I dont think M+ should ever have been infinitely farmable.
Can you answer my question or my statement about CM as you seemed to skipped a massive flaw in your view i pointed out.
Firstly, you arent owed a response by anyone. My time is finite. Secondly, I responded to your post, read up. I cannot give individual post replies to everyone, as the forums require someone to have posted since your last post and lots of people have addressed me.
Spoiler, you didnt point out a massive flaw. The very fact that challenge modes didnt receive much support is evidence of their lack of popularity.
No its because once you had gold there was no point to do them again.
And you can still run a higher key and get a high reward item from the vault regardless if you finish the run in 30 mins or 4 hours.
So in that case. What exactly is the problem? Enter the dungeon, close the timer window and have a tea-party mid-way for all I care. 
Problem.
Solved.
Then its a you problem. I also miss my teens where I could sit at the PC without a care in the world. Now times are different⌠a lot different. Yet I still find time to raid with my lads from the guild or run an M+ here and there.
Prove to me that the âmajorityâsâ trouble with m+ is purely the timer to begin with. For me it just the âbest loot pinnataâ. If Blizz made m+ reward less to no gear and you could get 415+ stuff from random BG spam then the forums would be filled with âOmg Blizzard. I canât get enough honnor for my 421 vault slot because some no life gladiator rogue is oneshoting me! Those gladiotor pvp guys are such toxec elitists!â instead.
Yes, and they could easily have expanded on the system⌠and they didnt. Probably because few people engaged with it.
And you can still run a higher key and get a high reward item from the vault regardless if you finish the run in 30 mins or 4 hours.
So in that case. What exactly is the problem? Enter the dungeon, close the timer window and have a tea-party mid-way for all I care.
Problem.
Solved.
And how do you get the +20 keystone dumbass? Oh yeah, you need to make the timer. In any case, you arent addressing several other complaints I have made about the M+ format, which doesnt actually include gripes about the great vault. Its the detrimental impact it has on the entire 5 man experience outside of the trivially easy. Magically getting a +20 key without ever completing the keystone in time, aside from being obviously nonsensical, doesnt solve the other concerns I mentioned.
Then its a you problem. I also miss my teens where I could sit at the PC without a care in the world. Now times are different⌠a lot different. Yet I still find time to raid with my lads from the guild or run an M+ here and there.
But its definitely not just a me problem. And to resolve this problem for me doesnt actually create any problems for anyone else, unless my proposal is so overwhelmingly popular that no one wants to run timed M+ anymore. If so, that would be the surest sign there could be that it was the right choice. Its not hurting you, its not a significant tax on dev resources and its how the game was for a long time. Asking for it to be implemented is completely reasonable.
Your problem, on the other hand, an apparent resentment of the idea of some other players enjoying the game other than as you do, is manifestly unreasonable.
Prove to me that the âmajorityâsâ trouble with m+ is purely the timer to begin with. For me it just the âbest loot pinnataâ. If Blizz made m+ reward less to no gear and you could get 415+ stuff from random BG spam then the forums would be filled with âOmg Blizzard. I canât get enough honnor for my 421 vault slot because some no life gladiator rogue is oneshoting me! Those gladiotor pvp guys are such toxec elitists!â instead.
Its odd that you keep caricaturing me as preoccupied with ilevel, when you have talked about it far more than I have. I am focussed on the gameplay experience. You are preoccupied with the idea that unworthy casuals might get the same gear you have, evidently.
In any case, I need prove nothing. If people have no problem with the M+ timer, you have nothing to worry about. If everyone drops timed M+ when given an alternative, thatâs all the proof you need that people dont actually like it.
I donât understand why people donât see this. We do this all the time. The timer really does nothing to you, except the option to bloodlust way more since you can purge the buff when you are out of time.
Because it didnt yield gear, only cosmetics and was hard to pug.
Lets post facts few people got gold but a lot tried it stop trying to suit your needs.
If lots tried, they would have worked on it. The reality is, very few people cared for it at all.
Citation needed.
They iterated on it and came up with something that scales to give replayability. Itâs called M+
Indeed. My guild also sometimes offers on last day the âleftoverâ keys. Did a Court on yday with peps who⌠have leave a lot to be desired regarding m+ experience. 
Wasnât timed obviously but the guys had a such a laughter over there. They are still making puns and memes about a guildy who got hit by the last bossesâs purple line thingy(bad with mechanic names)âŚpretty muchâŚall the time.
Yet it was a jolly-fun run and weekly chore done.
So once againâŚ
Where
Is
The
problem?