They effectively replaced non timed 5 man with M+. The timed content couldnt stand on its own two legs. If you are confident it can, no problem. Just run both in parallel and see what players prefer.
We had our "torment tuesday"s in previous expansions. But M+ in current expansion is way harder so unfortunately we can not carry people in 15âs when we are ourselves hardly able to do 15âs (had to walk out of a vault 14 after over an hour run and still on 2nd boss last week). The problem is now we can not finish dungeons at all. Who cares about a timer.
1 Like
You do you and your view the comments blizzard made about it say different hence why we have m+ now.
This does not in any way negate what I said.
We dont have M+ because challenge modes were so popular. M+ was to make 5 man content have greater longevity (a good idea) and they smacked on a timer, which at least felt rewarding when 3 chest runs were a thing, but has demonstrably had a bunch of negative consequences for pugs.
But hey, lets say you are right and I am wrong. Why not do as I propose? You still get the same content, its not some great drain on dev resources and you are just giving people the choice.
Why does 5 man content have to be punishing and time bound? Why can the challenge not be the mechanics, not the time pressure?
Yeah, what you said is essentially players need to git gud. Its hardly a profound point. What I said, which is actually a point of substance, is that RIO is specifically a consequence of timers, not just mechanical difficulty, because it makes failure much more punishing. Difficulty is the likelihood of failure. Punishment is the consequence of failure. You can focus on the former, not the latter.
I do not mind you having none timed content , i just dislike how you lie about how m+ and CM worked.
Really any reason to swear which is ban worthly btw , you are lying because you said they were not taking up which they were just not many got gold which is the truth of the matter.
Once you got gold there was nothing to do which is fact.
RIO is no consequence of timers, or consequence overall. In my opinion you just see it as something itâs not. Itâs not much more than a tool to show what you have completed before. Iâm not sure how this can be seen as a consequence.
The achievement of a raid-boss with an enrage timer can be seen as exactly the same then. Iâm not sure this holds any ground.
1 Like
Quite ironic especially since an timed and untimed(well not untimed beyond 40%) point difference isâŚ10? So in essense a person can have 2k+ rio without a single timed run. 
1 Like
As I have repeatedly explained, the timer makes failure much more punishing. The difference between a depleted key and just replacing a sub par party member is a big deal. Consequently, people are much fussier about who to take in the first place.
Again, thereâs no punishment as far as it is concerned RIO. Showing experience cannot be seen as punishment or consequence. Thatâs just nonsense.
In the end people want the least chance of failure/time-wasting as possible, this is not inherently connected to depleted keys. As said before here, the invitation procedures prior to Legion were quite dire at times as well. And then we could just easily replace someone. And still, why do people when pugging raids care so much about experience, gear, achievements and what not? They can replace people on the fly.
Youâre just blaming something that is not to be blamed.
1 Like
I am not talking about RIO score (though actually, I have known people to specifically quit keys to have no depleted keys recorded). The punishment is that the run is a complete waste of time, repair bills and you lose the key and have to relevel it. If its a weekly key, you have lost not only that run, but need at least one more successful run just to get the key back.
This is a specific consequence of the mythic+ format, and its a significant punishment for failure. Without the timer, this problem goes away, as does the need to rush constantly, as does the fussiness of pug groups. Also, you can go back to being excited about individual boss kills.
Playing for fun negates this feeling of an utter waste of time. And sure, the key becomes one lower. Big deal. In Legion your key literally bricked; no reward from redoing it. The punishment already severely reduced. And then you can get a different key, not ideal but so be it.
You also remove one of the things that make it that you need to plan ahead and push your boundaries a little. And everyone is free to not care about the timer or higher keysâŚjust find likeminded people.
People very seldom find a depleted key that you dont even finish âfunâ. Its not. Its a frustrating waste of time, particularly when you cannot even attempt the run again and have a downgraded copy of the key. You are actively moving backwards and get literally nothing from the run. If you didnt finish a TBC or Cata heroic, you at least got some gear, reputation and werent losing progress.
The idea that this doesnt make players more risk averse when forming pugs is obviously nonsense. Again, RIO didnt exist until mythic+. If I took a bad player in TBC, A) without a timer, we could probably carry one bad player and B), if not, we could kick, go to the summoning stone and get a replacement. With RIO, if I have the key, I am only taking guys with scores well above the content I am actually doing, as with a weekly +15, there were plenty of them. To pretend its always been this way is disingenuous.
As for âjust find like minded peopleâ try pugging with the tag line âChill run, dont care about the timer, probably wont make itâ. Maybe you can get a group for a weekly +20, though those signing up will likely have lower scores, and you are better off just doing a standard run and taking the best players.
Rather than use this obviously silly âsolutionâ, why not have a real solution and give players non timed 5 man content with the affixes and numbers tuning necessary to not make it a joke?
Ofc it has. Pug ICC HC? Have at least GS equal to ICC HC-gear. This was a thing, extremely common.
Lets not look back to the past with pink glasses. It really wasnât all only better.
Mate, I have played every expansion, and raids are not 5 man dungeons. Cata and TBC heroics were, by the standards of the day, pretty hard content. There was nothing close to the level of elitism then as there is now.
I am not even looking to play at a particularly sedate pace. I would just prefer a format where I can ask a question, discuss a strategy, not take myself too seriously, answer than door or phone. And I would like to have that and for the content to not be a complete joke.
M0s are laughable in Dragonflight. I am badly geared, have been in groups where I was 2nd on DPS and outhealing the healer, the only one interupting, and still made a +2 timer comfortably in time. That is moderately harder than an M0. I would like content challenging enough where the group fails if they perform that badly, BUT where failure isnt actively punishing me.
Somehow i got all of this in M+.
Yeah, sure, trying pugging a weekly key at the ilevel cap and say BRB phone, âJust want to take a min or two to discuss the boss stratâ, or, heaven forefend, you make a stupid mistake a wipe the group after blowing bloodlust.
Then proceed to watch someone leave and lose the entire run.
Luckily pugging isnât the only option. Blizzard has advertized M+ as content for coordinated groups. You get the freedom to create your groups with randoms too, but that isnât the expected way.
We are timing 1 dungeons a week out of 10 runs since it is reeally hard since DF. We just banter around. Everything you want i just got in M+.
And the reason we cannot have affixes and difficulty scaling, but also no timer and individual boss drops is�