The horde should keep Ashenvale

Chronicles (if still cannon) would disagree:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/File:Night_Elf_Empire.jpg

Although you are correct in saying the Highborne and by extension their decedents the Blood Elves severed as the ruling elite and aristocracy, it is disingenuous to state the the ordinary NE did not contribute or have a significant stake in it’s continued success and upkeep. Kur’talos Ravencrest himself was a noble but not of Highborne blood. A caste system does not absolve you of your race’s heritage.

If your going renounce the NE stake in the Kaldorei Empire, when the lands were for the most part unsettled wilderness utilised as little more than expansive hunting grounds, you cannot simultaneously then claim that these lands are then sacred to NE culture. Although, that said i will not deny that the NE have a deep connection with Ashenvale since being permanently settled.

Regardless of the answer, the needs of the many Orcs will outweigh the needs of the “relatively” few Night Elves.

The question is would you rather secure what lands you currently control or further risk loosing these in more bloodshed and conflict?
If not now, then at some point further down the line where the situation may even be less favourable.
If there was such an opportunity for a lasting peace and relative stability and, if I were given such a treaty i would not squander it on rhetoric or dogmatic belief.
Are the lives of your people that remain worth so little?

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Thing is Night Elves do not recognise so called armistice, they have not made peace with Horde nor do agree with Anduins political moves and it’s not in his hands to decide so.

Furthermore Night Elves have moved to Hyjal which is considered Druidic land and barely is accessible to anyone not member of CC or Night Elves themselves.

Another part - with the Long Vigil their duty was to defend Nordessil and any territory around it was settled and considered Night Elven lands long after they had to do anything with old Kaldorei empire. Ashenvale was the very place Night Elves ambushed Grom.

Now I can see Horde using the ending of war as a advantage to take ashenvale while NE lick their wounds, but I doubt that will last, if Night Elves keep on revenge theme going on. Especially now when Tyrande and Shandris is gone - Maiev has no love for Horde or diplomatic skills. Dont see any reason why would they willingly give up on Ashenvale while Anduin did nothing to aid them and they have score to settle with Horde.

And I doubt Horde has any strength to launch another full scale assault on Hyjal this time. Ashenvale is much vaster then in game. Guerilla warfare would bleed the orcs out before they secure the land

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Late night thought: I might have an idea about how to explain this situation without lore contradictions. But for this I need a couple hints since I did not play that part yet (waiting for Shadowlands):

  • Did Sylvanas directly ask to bring back Sira and maybe somebody else?
  • Where was Sylvanas during those 8.1 events or whenever those who could make a choice were raised?

Thanks in advance.


gl hf

Nope.
Sira was just randomly there because she was tasked by Maiev to hunt at the shores but was somehow overwhelmes by Nathanos and his Valkyr.

The Nightwarrior and Malfurion weren’t ther ein time to prevent them from killing Sira and they ressed her just because she was there.

During the questline for the Horde Nathanos knew the NEs will attack and their forces are too hin, he got the idea himself to raise soem NEs who are still lying around from WoT, including Delaryn.
It was Nathanos idea to bolster troops out of panic.

Sira was just a casulty that happened to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Also one thing that another player just brought to my attention today:

NEs practically consists of only militars hardened individualy anymore.
If most of the civillians died at Teldrassil, but the entire Sentinel Army was in Silithus, it means that this army is pretty much now composing of the vast majority of NEs and didn’t suffer any noticable casulties during BFA since they just weren’t there.
So in fact that would leave NEs with irconicly yet again the strongest military force on Kalimdor since the Horde was fighting on Zandalar and Kul Tiras.

Means The Horde had to secure and defend Ashenvale this time not against the few inhabitants of Darkshore and Astranaar but against the entire, pissed off, Sentinel Army.

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Oh well, no luck then.

Like, when I saw Sylvanas ordering raising the dead during the worgen starting zone, all of them were raised and forced to fight at her side. However, when you make a new undead character, the first thing you see is different: when val’kyrs are doing their “job” on their own, they offer a choice to accept raising or not.

So I though, that if my idea about val’kyrs not being truly loyal to Sylvanas [could be correct], then if they could keep it secret, they would offer the choice to be raised or not. But this can’t be done to contradict orders of Sylvanas, because of the pact.

If raising Sira would be ordered directly, that would be an easy explanation. But as you describe it - I do not know if they indeed could sometimes hide what they do, and with Sira - not be able to.


gl hf

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The whole thing is actually a mess.
But the questline for the Horde in Darkshore consists of the Player being taskted by Nathanos to raise 6 NE Sentinels and bestows one Valkyr with the player.

During the PTR people were outraged by the quest and Blizzard changed it a bit.
Before: The raising was a 100% success rate.
After the outrage: Most of the NEs you try to raise refuse and become whisps and fly away or attack.
It should impy that most NEs refuse to be ressed and the Valkyr offers a choice.
This was canon for Sira aswell during 8.1, she wsa just risen and immediate turned against Tyrande.
This again caused outrage and Blizzard seems to have decided to retcon it during Shadows Rising, where Sira explicitly says she didn’t choose to be ressed.
The Calia quest where she walks away with Delaryn and the risen sentinels, implies similar things.

So unfortunately this whole story arc is a complete mess and it seems that Blizz fortunately decided to revert the narrative again.

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Your right in saying that the current leadership of the Night Elves do not recognise the current armistice, and it is yet another example of emotions getting in the way of pragmatism where the option for a peaceful settlement is potentially on the table which would prevent further casualties.
Although, that said i’m not going to dismiss their reasons for disregarding the ceasefire are not without merit due to atrocities inflicted upon them. Even if they were carried out under the orders of Sylvanas, ordinary members of the Horde military force present during the War of Thorns did participate in the mass slaughter of civilians unprovoked. By all accounts a war crime which has yet to been answered for in kind or otherwise.

Neither is it being suggested that the Horde are themselves planning on taking advantage of a wounded Night Elf faction nor is the possibility of marching on Hyjal being pandered a plausible eventuality. That would involve besieging territory deep within Night Elven lands most of which is impassible terrain of what is essentially a natural mountain fortress. Not to mention the logistical nightmare of securing supply lines up there and protecting them throughout hostile territory as you’ve touched upon. It would be a fools errand to do so or even consider such an attempt with a depleted force. There numbers required to carry out such a campaign are simply not there and would be, as you’ve rightly stated, worn down via attrition before they even got there in any meaningful capacity to carry out an effective assault.

With the new Horde Council acting as the governing body they a more so in a period of self reflection and reconciliation internally and, by extension with the Alliance too in attempt to alleviate current tensions. I don’t think either side (barring the Nights Elves & Worgen) are at this point in time looking to pick a fight and stoke further conflict and strife over the pretext of revenge.

What is essentially being requested here is that existing Horde claims within the region east of the Falfarren River are recognised for what they currently are. In fact as previously mentioned in such a proposal the Horde would be withdrawing from all their holds West of it, ceding a substantial amount of ground in the process. It could even be considered a form of reparations in the form of restitution.

In addition, I don’t think it would be to much of stretch to suggest that if other members of the Alliance were able to secure reciprocal recognition in return, for other disputed lands or concessions from the Horde elsewhere (especially those within the Eastern Kingdoms), that they may pressure the Kaldorei into accepting such terms, and if failing that withdrawing their support for them in some manner in protest.

WARNING! Shadowlands Spoiler

Turalyon himself now acting regent come SL has already expressed an interest in securing lands previously held by the old Alliance of Lordaeron. So i do not believe such a potential scenario is totally out of the question.

“Reclaiming Stromgarde was a good first step. Perhaps there are other holdings of the old Alliance that could be secured.”

It would work well to serve as a plot device to stoke further internal tensions within the Alliance which itself is long overdue.
I’d be curious to see how the chips would fall and which sides individual Alliance faction leaders would take if such an event were to occur in the near future.

Another point of consideration is although, Garrosh may no longer be held in high regard by the Orcs, his father Grommash still is.
Demonfall canyon situated within the south eastern corner of Ashenvale could also be considered sacred to the Orcs if not a place of pilgrimage. This being the site where they were liberated from the demonic taint of Mannoroth and ultimately freed from the shackles of the Legion. It’s a bit of a stretch i know but, it does help to counter claim previous statements about the land itself being sacred to just the Night Elves themselves.
It may have been the Kaldorei’s charge during the Long Vigil to defend these lands and Nordrassil but, when the time came during the events of WC3 upon the return of the Legion lead by Archimonde, many races including the Orcs also gave their lives in defence of the World Tree. Made possible in a large part due to Grommash’s martyrdom not just for his race but also Azeroth as a result of his personal sacrifice, regardless if he saw it as such at the time.

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I do not think that peace is option at the moment for Night Elves, not according to Tyrande, after Horde has grievences of Teldressil on their hands.

I do not think that is a pragmatic move to make peace with enemy who did dirty to you. That’s weak.

Even Tyrande states similar when Thrall tries to apologise on behalf of Horde -

When you have washed the bodies of a thousand kaldorei burned and broken, when you have fallen to your knees and kissed the feet of a thousand mourning souls, when you look into their eyes and tell them ‘our Horde has changed’ and they believe you, only then will I accept your apology and treat you as my equal.” Tyrande’s voice, edged as steel, pulled the air out of the clearing. “My brethren here may be willing to entertain your empty pledges of justice and aid, but I know better. I have learned better.

I do not think - A. Thats actual thing, if we are going into full speculation land we can do so seperately. B. Horde can notco exist with Night Elves without any rivalry.

There was none to begin with…

Asking to claim a land and perimission for pilgrimage are two seperate things.

And yet even after that Warsong Clan continued to use the land for their resources for wood. In times when Garrosh was in charge Orcs gladly jumped the dhip to expand their lands and take Night Elven settlements. What is guarantee that this wont happen again. Or a single reason to why Horde should have the land just to use up its own resource or forgiven upon their crimes.

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What? Stromgarde was never in Horde hands. It was always contested. There was always Alliance forces fighting for it.
Also after the war we only know that Alliance manage to retake Stromgarde from Ogres/Sindicates, and manage to defend it from the Horde attempt to destroy it. But no one tells that Horde was kicked out from Arathi, and that Horde base there was destroyed.

But, according to Turalion, its very possible that he will be the one, who will try to return all the Alliance lands, and kick the Horde back to the Outland. Which means war.

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Go play Cataclysm.
Or look up Galen Trollbane.

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Go read Before the Storm.
Or fly and look up in Stormgarde before BfA timeshift.

Just wet power fantasies from alliance fanatics. Nothing to be taken serious.

Cool, so the Alliance took it in BfA.

Mind telling me how does any of it contradict:

In Legion, Stromgarde was hostile/neutral to all under a risen Galen Trollbane.

HOWEVER, before Legion, the Alliance controlled 1/3th of Stromgarde and had another base, while the Horde controlles the ruins of Hammerfall and had one other base too.

Arathi was never mostly under Horde control and neither was it mostly under Alliance control.

If you need proof, play Classic, play Cataclysm and play Legion’s DK campaign.

Thinking otherwise is just a Horde power fantasy.

Also, in Shadow’s Rising we read about Horde refugees fleeing Arathi, so yeah Arathi is almost fully under Alliance control again (to the elf that said we didnt know if the Horde base was destroyed).

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Arathi never had a larger Horde presence…

Vanilla Alliance: Refuge Pointe and 1/3 of Stromgarde, Horde: Hammerfall

Cata: Same for Alliance, Horde gains a small camp, Galen’s Fall

Pre-Bfa: Stromgarde is independent under Galen. Shortly afterwards reclaimed by Alliance.

So MAYBE Horde had a bigger presence between Galen being killed and the Alliance moving in. Not a serious claim to the zone…

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As for Ashenvale there could never be peace between Horde and the Nelves if it wasn’t returned. It as simple as that. It’s the second most important and sacred place to the Night Elves after Nordrassil.

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By the end of cataclysm, the Forsaken under Galen succeeded in laying waste to the ruins of Stromgarde while reclaiming Trol’kalar and achieving a resounding victory for the Forsaken:

If we add the control the orcs of Hammerfall had of the eastern area, the zone tilts heavily towards the Horde side by the end of cataclysm.

Come BfA, the Alliance swoops in to reclaim the ruined city after the Ebon Blade deals with the forsaken that seceded under Galen.

But that doesn’t mean that the Horde didn’t hold a largely dominant presence up until BfA. And the point remains, that after the war, having said humans claim most of the area isn’t something that:

As i said:

Blizzard tweeted officially:

The Alliance won both Warfronts as the zones which it took place were Alliance zones to begin with.
That is their official stance. So arguing wether or not it ever was horde is futile in this case.

And same statement is probably true for Ashenvale as this zone was allways heavyly associated with NEs.
Simple as that.

t. Erevien dying out of hunger in Hellfire Peninsula, circa 2022

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*dying of disease in zangar march

Hellfire belongs to the Alliance.

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