They’re fleeing towards hammerfell. So at least that outpost is still standing.
Why should the Horde keep Ashenvale? They only blitzkrieged through it in the war of thorns. And they gave up their holdings to the night elves after SoO in exchange for Azshara.
They’re in no position nor right to hold any claim to Ashenvale, and I doubt they’re stupid enough to risk the war erupting once more over it, especially with how pissed Tyrande, Malfurion and the night elves are.
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Why should the Horde care one bit about any of this?
I always find it curious how this arguments get on popping from time to time.
Noone is contractually obliged to give up on any territory if they don’t want to. This war didn’t have a victor, both sides simply decided to stop fighting.
This peace works both ways.
It’s in the Alliance best interest to keep it too unless they want to risk another Teldrassil or turn yet more Horde members into some Sylvanas or Garrosh.
If the Horde had wanted to keep Ashenvale, they could’ve. And the Alliance would’ve had to deal with it.
But as it is now, they probably decided to have an act of goodwill and withdrew from it (nothing confirmed by the way, and for all we know they could be currently keeping their outposts near Orgrimmar).
Must we assume that the Alliance did likewise with Silverpine, the Barrens, Azshara, and the rest of the Horde areas they were attacking?
They to, left because “They were in no position or right to hold any claim to said areas” and because “they wouldn’t risk the war erupting”?
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Because they get killed over it. While they themselves are in big trouble again with being headless.
What a silly question. “Why shoudl I care that i get constandly killed for no gain or reason just because my player in the background wants to feel tough?”
So would the Alliance.
And the second the Horde started getting killed, they would start the war again. This time, without internal dissent that could aid the Alliance.
Because they are not headless, they have a functional council. A council that currently has most of its members advocating for peace.
Start hostilities and the majority would go to the warmongers.
Still not seeing why should the Horde (or any faction for that matter) give up any territory.
If Ashenvale (or any territory) was “given” back to the Alliance (or whoever), it was a concession. A token sample of cordiality to keep peace. Nothing else.
Because as things are at the moment, the Horde has about the same reasons to “fear” the Alliance, as the Alliance has to “fear” them.
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Yes but NEs story is actually revolving around their lands and protecting it with their lives. This is the difference.
But it gets so annoying to talk to you about that.
You have your wet dreams about it, I have mine.
I backed up my claims with ressources provided. And really after BFA I can’t ever see Blizzard giving Ashenvale to the Horde. Never. Especially not when they argue with: “They are key old Alliance locations; that feels right for the world.”
So sorry but probabilities are low for your claims.
At the end we will have to wait and see what happens when Blizzard finally takes Ashenvale as a Zone out of its WoT-Prepatch limbo, because currently there are neither real Alliance nor Horde forces in Ashenvale.
All is just opinion at that point with some official hints hinting more towards Alliance.
That’s why they are seeking refuge in Hyjal and not in Ashenvale…?
I can’t see why they’d give it entirely to the Alliance (or the Night elves) either. The Horde has historically held claims over portions of said land since the game first launched.
Groms grave is placed in Ashenvale.
What claims am i making?
I’m not the one categorically affirming that the Horde would or should give any Fs about the “historical” claim anyone would have over Ashenvale.
Or why would they give it “back” with said reasons.
I’m replying to a very specific stance: The Horde is obliged to give back Ashenvale to the Alliance or the Night elves.
No, no they are not. They can and will if they want.
But just as the Alliance has no qualms about keeping onto territories that weren’t initially theirs, the Horde had about every “right” to keep their hold on Ashenvale or any other territory they want…for as long as they feel that it works in their best interest.
Much like the Alliance retreated from Zandalar as a gesture of goodwill, the Horde could’ve done the same with Ashenvale (Even if nothing indicates they did…).
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world tree?
Way to reaffirm or defend “with their lives” their “ancestral land”, if they flee to a loosely neutral territory the Horde has zero military interest in…lol
Because they’re in no position nor shape to wage a war, nor do they have the manpower needed to hold Ashenvale.
I seriously doubt this, considering they got their butts handed to them in Darkshore by night elves alone.
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Hyjal is more strategic point in my opinion, its location allows them to recuperate, Ashenvale is an open front and as said we do not know if the Horde have their forces or not. Also it seems Hyjal isn’t kept “neutral” no more, when the only access to the land is via some CC members.
And yes I do not see any reason to why should Horde give upon their War victory. They have claimed Ashenvale in WoT, have had their forces there for long time and harvesting resources from there.
The only difference is that Night Elves are not backing down, and as I understood from BS Thrall doesn’t want any more bloodshed, so that would make sense for them to cease the expansion there. For now.
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Pretty much. They lack the manpower to hold those areas. Just as the Horde lack the manpower to hold Ashenvale.
Otherwise this entire war was a complete nonsense and a giant lie, considering we’ve been told that both factions were stretched thin even before the war. The whole purpose of recruiting the allied races was to get more manpower. After the devastating losses both sides have suffered, there’s no way either of them can hold those areas.
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If the Horde truly retreated from Ashenvale (still not seeing actual indications of this, although i think its a rather probable scenario), them doing such would have the same reasoning as the one the Alliance had to fully retreat from Zandalar (this we know as a fact it happened): because they felt it was in their best interest to not push the war further, and the whole thing lacked either strategical value for them, or represented a token gesture of goodwill/commitment to the newly signed armistice.
Given the war ended with a call to cease of hostilities, and how eager certain collectives from both sides are to start anew, i find this explanation rather lacking.
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Agree on all of this.
I just felt like pointing out how thinly sustained the whole “NEs would die for any land they feel its theirs” argument seemed to be.
I get that after a war, partisans for either side feel the need to flex on stuff like waving on their “Right” or how some guy “Wouldn’t dare…”. But the fact is, that this wasn’t a scenario where either side actually claimed the upper hand.
Here, both sides just ceased to kill each other. And any “concession” made along the way, would probably be one done willingly.
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I’m afraid that’s your problem. All the evidence and common sense point towards it being the case. Few hot-blooded idiots wanting to continue killing each other doesn’t mean that the war could feasibly be continued.
Hyjal never was neutral. It always was Nelfs. Night Elves just allowed different nature lovers to visit and study. But Nordrassil really was, because its a World Tree, and killing that tree might destroy Azeroth. So, many different heroes come to defend that tree from time to time.
But still, its stands on Night Elves land where they lived for 10 k years (not 20+ years like in Darnassus).
Also Saurfang in the book was thinking where to attack after Teldrassil. And Hyjal was one of his targets. So, the Horde was counting Hyjal as Alliance territory.
Night Elves did not stop the war against the Horde. But we know from the book, that Night Elves are not fighting against the Horde.
Also from the book we know that Thrall manage to gather only ~40 Horde soldiers to fight Nathanos, that is how small current Horde army is.
So, it is the fact, that Horde does not have army to hold Ashenvale, and it is a fact, that Night Elves currently has no reasons to fight against the Horde. So, its logically that Ashenvale is not in Horde hands (in fact it never was).
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Its not about NE would die for their lands or not. Its about Night Elves not buying “we have changed” Horde repetitive Bull💩.
This should have happened long time ago and its understandable why the community is so strongly behind such actions.
Well, thing is that, many might disagree, despite WoT and Teldressil night elves are still in alright shape military wise and it seems they have secluded themselves from Alliance as well and it will prove hard for Horde to establish in Ashenvale, which was the original point of this thread.
Kalimdor has still pretty good Alliance/Night Elven representation, while I can’t say the same for Horde in EK, unless Blood Elves decide to go aggressive, its matter of time until forsaken will be overpowered by Alliance forces.
True. For the ultimate friendship factions.
Thats why I put it in quote…
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It is speculation. What’s been proposed is purely hypothetical in the event of treaty being signed to recognise currently existing boundaries in game that act as literal borders in all but name using the Falfarren river as a focal point.
The Alliance’s presence currently displayed in game is next to non-existent east of this river bar one or two minor exceptions such as Forest Song. The Horde potentially ceding land and pulling back east of the river would be part and parcel of such a process of negotiations and an act of good faith.
It’s also not to say that there won’t be continued rivalry between the Night Elves and Horde even if such a treaty were to be agreed upon. What such an agreement would do however is reduce the risk of these tensions boiling over into an unmanageable situation by providing clear and defined borders or at a minimum recognised lines of actual control.
The current geography of Ashenvale provides a hotbed for such scenarios with various rival settlements dotted throughout the territory and because each side stakes a claim for one reason or another.
In the Horde’s case this would be primarily for ready access to a convenient supply of natural resources (lumber in particular) and to provide a buffer region to the northwestern perimeter of Orgrimmar.
I also think some individuals batting for the Alliance are seriously overestimating their current capabilities in areas such as Northern Kalimdor when compared against the Horde forces still present there or those that could be moved up from the South in a relatively short time frame.
Although it’s true to say forces on both sides of the conflict were seriously depleted after the events of the Forth War, I think it would be a mistake to think the Horde would be unable to muster a considerable force in defence of territories so close to their factions capital.
Even if the bulk of the Sentinel army has pulled through this conflict relatively unscathed, considerable losses were still taken during the WoT event.
Southeastern Ashenvale is not Darkshore.
Ignoring outposts situated deeper in the region such as Zoram’gar, this area of Ashenvale would be considerably easier for the Horde to reinforce and resupply if the situation called for it.
Regardless of the feelings of the Night Elves or even if such a treaty were to ever materialise in some form or another, I don’t think the Horde would ever consider fully withdrawing from Ashenvale in the near future.
The price paid by doing so and the associated economic loss would simply be to high unless major concessions by the Alliance were made elsewhere in return. This would be doubly true in the period of rebuilding that now follows on from the war.
So to conclude, until such a turn of events or until Blizzard revisit the zone and provide clarity, what we essentially end up with is a continued stalemate where neither side wants to give ground and skirmishes short of a full blown warfront continue for the foreseeable future.
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I get it, but you are missing the point. For that kind of treaty to be put in place, the bridge has to be mended, which is not, you cannot build a trust or force it so.
Problem is not the dispute of land
I will go back to the same quotes I used before,
When you have washed the bodies of a thousand kaldorei burned and broken, when you have fallen to your knees and kissed the feet of a thousand mourning souls, when you look into their eyes and tell them ‘our Horde has changed’ and they believe you, only then will I accept your apology and treat you as my equal.” Tyrande’s voice, edged as steel, pulled the air out of the clearing. “My brethren here may be willing to entertain your empty pledges of justice and aid, but I know better. I have learned better.
What is guarantee that this wont happen again. Or a single reason to why Horde should have the land just to use up its own resource or forgiven upon their crimes.
Horde has surely hid their crimes behind the tyrant Warchief curtain, but every time before war went south for them they were happy dance under the drums of war.
Oh, I agree with that the Horde shouldn’t just give up gained territory, but concessions need to be made. Hence why I think Horde should renounce their claim on Arathi, but double down on their claim of parts of Ashenvale, up to the Falfarrren River.
They are? I thought they where fleeing the entire zone?
Yet ignoring the fact that the Horde is in a stronger position after the wae than the Alliance. So if the war would break out again, the Alliance would most likely lose anyway this lose all of their territories. Admittedly they wouldn’t be genocided as they would under Sylvanas.
This is a headcanon, 2/4th of the night elf leadership want to continue the war, 1/4th wants peace to rebuils and thus be willing to concede territory for peace and 1/4th we do not know (this is ignoring Jarod Shadowsong and Mordent Evenshade), and even in the world we see night elves talking about either peace or war bieng an option, for either rebuilding or revenge, but absolutely none of the night elves talks about their lands.
This goes both ways, the night elves and Alliance are in no position to wage a (defensive) war either. Their closest allies the Draenei are lacking resources and manpower after invading Argus and defending their home islands, the night elves have no solid base where they can make new weapons or house their civilians to repopulate and the humans where so desperate they were conscripting farmers into the military to fight. While the Horde loyalists where big enough to wage war and probably win against the Alliance amd they now reunited with the Horde rebels.
But hey ho Horde weak, Alliance stronk amirite?
That said, I do agree with Hyjal and its surrounding forests (now known as Ashenvale, Felwood and Darkshore) bieng historically night elven lands, even during the time of the Kaldorei Empire thet where considered holy and revered by the common people of the empire.
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