That would be really stupid, wouldn’t it? I doubt your strawman would ever be able to defend such idiotic behavior.
I wish.
I never said it takes skill. Lol
But its FUN. you know why? because we dont have to deal with sweatlords.
Delves are NOT an issue. They are a solution. I NEVER have to deal with neckbeards screaming at the keyboard for 1% less DPS.
Bad players? lol. This is an MMORPG. The only “Bad” player is the one that makes the experience miserable for others.
Withdrawing from the conversation.
To be fair; from a certain point there are indeed players making the experience miserable for others.
Strawman? You literally said :
It’s ON YOU to invite or join a player with no experience whatsoever, nobody forces you to do so, stop blaming others for your actions.
Me personally I never play with this kind of people, or if I join a random group and there’s somebody 20 ilvls lower than he should, I immediately leave.
Who you play with is 100% your responsability
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Do you try to willfully misunderstand or do you truly not understand? Are you pugging in the real world or on paper?
What is there to misunderstand? You claimed that delvers join +8 immediately and I’m saying that it’s your choice to be on those groups or to invite them, whether you like it or not.
I didn’t even say that. Now I’m starting to doubt if you can even read.
But here lies the problem.
The better the delve rewards are, the more people are “forced” into them (m+, raiders). Since those people do not enjoy delves, then the only thing they care about is to have the easiest and fastest time in delves.
By increasing rewards and making delves mandatory, you increase the participation of those players in delves.
On the other hand, if the rewards they offer are equal to the rewards other modes offer with equal challenge, then you will never have to deal with those people. In that case they will prefer to farm their own game mode instead of joining delves for their “free gear”.
And if you only play delves, you do not care about the ilvl of the rewards, as long as it provides a satisfying gearing curve across the season. It’s not like you are gonna try to do tryhard content.
Maybe you should start doubting your own capabilities rather than mine.
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There is a tiny little word that you are missing, but it makes all the difference. Try if you can spot it. Should you be able to detect this word, attempt to activate all of your brain power to calculate the consequences.
The problem isnt really with delves or delvers.
Delvers just want to do delves, and thats it.
The problem is M+ players are gearing up in delves and then get too fast into too high M+ dungeons without the much experience of the lower keys. It is better to start on +2 and gear up in M+. That gives more relevant experience.
Ah yes the old trick of “I’m too smart and important and you are stupid, I won’t bother”.
Delvers can want the moon but in the end it is your responsibility where you get yourself into, period.
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Just read and quote correctly next time and you will be fine, buddy. You are smart enough for that.
I’d argue that this isn’t the case either. Low m+ is not practice content. When a mechanic that one shots you at higher m+ doesn’t do it in lower the only thing that you learn is that you don’t need a defensive. Or that you don’t need to stun the mob doing it etc.
When interrupting a random spell instead of the important one, you don’t really get to know which spell is the important one.
You start noticing when you get at a m+ level when these things start to matter.
There is always the option to check guides and try to practise at low keys without much punishment if you fail, but I cannot see people caring that much staying at low lvl content anyway.
It’s mostly people that don’t have the more in depth knowledge that hit the wall when mechanics start to matter.
For me it is very much practice content. Not sure why not?
It isn’t about 1 shots. It is about learning your spec in those dungeons. Positioning. Seeing orders of abilities, etc.
I will try to explain why lower m+ is perfect practice content and absolutely necessary by giving the example of the third boss in Grim Batol. There are many other good examples, but let’s just take this one because it has such an obvious effect to everyone.
You know what happens when one of the fire elementals on that boss fight touches a chased player, right? The whole group explodes in a huge Shadowflame Nova. On a +2 this probably won’t wipe you, but it will send a clear message. This mistake can’t happen on a high difficulty level. Everybody understands this immediately. You have learned to avoid this mistake for your own good and the survival of your group. If you want to be rewarded with better equipment, you can’t repeat this mistake in the future. This is a fair game design.
One more reason why I’m taking this as an example is because I had a personal experience with it. I did a +8 and one guy in the group clearly didn’t know anything about the dungeon. He thought he had to DUEL the elemental that was chasing him. We wiped, we explained, we barely timed it. He had a +10 Grim Batol in his score. I wonder how that happened.
If you are arguing for equal rewards, i have no further argument. I agree
This in turn begs the question: Why are you invfiting people with 0 score and /or no timed runs in dungeon X to the group in the first place, especially when you obviously have the personal epectation of mechanically perfect play? …
That complete failure to vet people is entirely on you and any changes to delves will not do the slightest thing to alter that.
AAAH, JETZT wissen wir nun wo der Hund begraben liegt…
So,bottom line, your actual problem isn’t with Delvers at all, but rather with Boosters and Boostees… maybe try to solve that “problem”, then 
Still doesn´t change the vetting issue, just means that you still can´t and shouldn´t blindly take someone`s score with no other information and make any assumptions. Thewre´s a good reason you can easily copy people’s IO profiles from the ingame client, and it´s not to look at their mogs, but for example, to see if they ever ran a +2 /3/4/5/6/7, or if they jsut ran 8x10 in teh course of 2 hours with mostly the same players.
So, once again, the responsibility for proper vetting to avoid such issues falls entirely upon you. but it requires more than blind interpretaition of the number with no further information, Becasue alone it says nothing, just like “itemlevel 619” say nothing about whether you have 2 or 4 set bonus and /or reasonably decent trinkets" , which can be a huge difference in performance.
I am talking about equal rewards for equal challenge. The problem is that people in the thread wanted “equal rewards” but also did not want delves to become “hard content”. You can only have equal rewards if the difficulty is the same.
Everything can be practise content if you are determined for it. You can perfect your rotation on world bosses and lfr. Do you need to? Certainly not, but you can do it.
But it’s not by default and that’s my point. It shouldn’t be either. Or it cannot be. As long as the design is like it is currently, with people being able to do 18s or 19s then the 3s and 4s have to be a joke. Unless the scaling is a joke. The point is you will hit a knowledge or skill wall somewhere along your journey. At low key levels it’s a knowledge wall for most players, exactly like the one you describe. If it didn’t wipe you on an 8+ imagine what would happen on a 2+. Nothing. He probably thought that he killed it in a 2+ and that’s what he needed to do. Edit: sorry you said it wiped you, but the rest stands as is
Yeah, the fact that he had a 10 timed had nothing to do with delves though, which is the current discussion. It’s a pure m+ problem.
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