I think it’s also very much how it was perceived by people as they created the chars. Obv at the higher end it pretty much equals out, but in terms of the “masses” Alliance is PvE noobies and Horde is more like a PvP Faction.
Also, actual Rankers on Horde play AV, whereas as Alliance it’s Rep farmers and AFK’ers, all Alliance Rankers prefer AB/WSG
Well it’s a good thing those 2 races cover all classes except for druids isn’t it? Seriousely the orc racial alone is so absurdly broken it puts all Alliance racials to shame. It was the best performing racial in TBC after it was nerfed to 15%. At 25% it’s just insanely powerful. Good luck fighting an orc as an Alliance rogue.
Lol yes they are! Dude, we played against premades for months and got stuck behind the IB GY choke over and over. IB GY is also a choke, a really strong choke, but sure, SH GY is a better choke, but that is mostly because Alliance don’t use the high hill to go past, they always choose the open lower road…
You are totally ignoring the fact that these chokes works both ways.
My point it this. If Alliance can’t hold SH GY when they have the advantage, they are a much worse team in that AV and they haven’t’ even touched any map imbalances yes. They reach SH GY first and ress closer and have bunker archers.
When Alliance do have the stronger team and actually hold SH GY, they usually break after 20min or so when the rewards to low.
I’ve been in several games where Horde recapped IB after it was hardcapped. I have never been in a game where Alliance recapped SH once it was hardcapped. In fact if you check the US forums you’ll find out that even when Alliance rankers queue synch to get 10+ people into the match they can’t recap SH if it gets hardcapped even with geared rankers using a ton of consumables. The choke there is much tighter than at IB and Alliance respawn a mile away from it. Once SH is hardcapped without anything south being blue the game is over for Alliance.
Also you can’t get past the choke by going up the hill. Even if you jump down from it with slowfall you still end up in the middle of the choke. Not to mention the fact that Alliance can’t even get to that hill once Horde control the road from SH to SP.
And bottom line is this: defending SH doesn’t win the game. If you just defend it Horde will summon Lok and take it. So you need to attack at some point without losing SH - one of the worst GYs to defend from an attack from the south - in the process. How do you expect that to be achievable?
You are comparing a premade holding IB to an average horde pug simply zerging SH and have granted win. Seems legit.
Alliance can only hold SH if all 40 players are just defending, since all horde attacks SH together, so either alliance have to be twice as strong as horde or have noone else left to attack south.
Sure the reinforcement is closer (it’s a graveyard afterall) but as soon as horde falls back to mid field the routes are evens out, so this advantage melts, while alliance team still needs to split to guard SH GY and push horde back further. This means at a point there will be 40 horde vs 20 alliance in mid field so horde pushes alliance back to SH or alliance have to abandon SH GY to keep their mid field position. Either way it’s a loss.
The only possibility for alliance to win the SH battle if 20 alliance can beat 40 horde, which is only possible with R10+ premades.
Omg alliance reaches its own graveyard first, what an advantage.
And where is horde at that time? At least at SH bunker.
And archers does not help for holding SH GY, not even a tiny bit.
Now compare it to IB GY:
lol, or you can scout, communicate, try to snipe GY’s, play the BG, meanwhile try to summon NPCs to help, but I guess alliance pugs aren’t capable of that? I’m not saying that its balanced but you kind of make it sound like you can’t do ANYTHING because of the map.
Alliance=Leacher
Horde=PvPer
If all that horde has to do is to zerg SH GY then all alliance will be needed to prevent capping it right?
Horde has longer reinforcement line from IB GY (until they cap SF GY), but as soon as they are pushed back to the middle the alliance team have to split, so the fight goes back and forth between SH and mid field.
So to do anything else than fighting at SH you need to weaken SH defense, which cannot hold too long for a full horde zerg, because only 10 can be resurrected at a time, so as soon as horde reaches the flag, the game is more or less over.
This means that any attempt to do anything else than holding SH automatically leads to a lost game. (Unless horde do something stupid.)
Most of the time few ppl indeed scout, snipe GY, etc. but that doesn’t make any difference since the team cannot support it.
Summoning is extremely difficult, because alliance have to run right into the horde attack line, push them back, guard the druids to not being kited, defend SH GY against attacks from the other side and also defend the 10 people while they are summoning.
On the other hand 10 horde can summon their boss without any interruption, because horde summon site is far from the conflict zone.
Also Ivus can be easily kited away and killed while Lokhart is nearly impossible to kill, because the full horde team support him and he gets more hp with every kill.
Why doesn’t the full alliance team can support Ivus?
Guess what: because they have to defend SH GY.
Otherwise horde cap it with one push and alliance will res up at north.
Because that’s exactly the case. You can’t really do anything against the current horde meta unless your team is way more stronger or horde doesn’t make a fatal mistake.
I played from launch of AV up until about when horde had 80% win rate. Most notably the alliance teams kept getting weaker and putting less and less effort. The meta has been the same ever since shortly after the premades were stopped. How do you even try to judge the map when the horde team is always stronger now?
You are mixing the consequence with the cause again.
Anyway you are right, nobody from alliance who care about pvp would enter AV anymore.
So it would be much simpler to just make AV a horde only easy mode pve raid. They wait for 30 min, do some pve farming and get max. honor and rep. This way AV queue would be instant with the same winrate.
Like with abandoned pvp realms: unbalance made a self accelerating process and chase alliance off the server making it a de facto pve realm. It could be done with AV as well, people wouldn’t even notice it.
It doesn’t change the fact that you can’t judge the map against a much stronger team. The fact is that the alliance used to win way more games while the horde was doing the same thing as they do now. They didn’t stop going AV just because of map imbalance.
I give up on talking to you. You don’t even acknowledge the other factors and say every single thing that happens in AV is just because of the map (just “a consequence” of the one and only “cause”: the map).
If even when Alliance got to play with almost all premades the AV winrate didn’t go over 40% there is a HUGE issue with the map and at those times you could still exploit the back entrance and skip a bunker. Both things that ppl who still defend AV thought were intended and didn’t help them.
What are you talking about? Any decent premade had close to 100% wins lol (and those kind of players stopped doing AV when they couldn’t premade anymore).
I mean, the map is bad, but the alliance lack of PvPers in AV is a bigger issue, and is not due to the map is all I’m saying.
7 months later and you still lose all AV lol? really?
Since 7 months later nor the horde meta nor the map design that supports it has changed why is it so surprising that the outcome stayed the same?
Yes, a stronger player pool has higher chance for the alliance team to become stronger than the horde team (more healers, more r10+ players, etc.) at a level that can compensate the map imbalance.
But lets just think logical: lets assume that there was a time when horde and alliance player pool was more or less the same. Depending on the player setup there could be 3 scenarios:
So with even pools horde wins 66% of the games.
Also because of the map design even if horde loses they end up much honor gain than alliance. SH bunker is free honor for horde, I haven’t seen a single game when horde hasn’t got it. So unless a premade is locking horde into their cave horde can kill LTs, take 2 bunkers and kill Balinda.
So for a solo ranker horde there is 66% chance of winning and even when losing he can end up with decent honor.
However for a solo ranker alliance there is 33% chance of winning and 66% chance to end up with less than 1K honor because being locked behind SH choke prevents alliance to take any horde towers.
And this is what made alliance rankers abandoning AV, not the faster queue times.
If the map would not support horde turtle meta then the whole situation would be reversed: alliance would have won 66% of the games and horde rankers would have abandoned AV. Longer queue time would have made it even worse, because waiting for an hour just to lose and get less than 1K honor is less motivating than doing the same with short queue times, is it?
Good guesswork and it’s mostly correct, but you still don’t understand that queue times affect honor per hour, and playstyle? The whole reason for horde being willing to play such long games, and why it’s still worth it for them, is the long queues. If the alliance had the long queues and horde had the short queues, or maybe even if queues were equal, then the horde probably wouldn’t play the turtle meta nearly as much, because they would want faster games.
Also, you are comparing the map against much stronger horde teams. If you aren’t able to get south and take some elites and at least challenge the towers then your team is much weaker then the horde team, as simple as that. You know what I normally saw in AV? 3-4 hordes guarding at IWB and alliance running solo into them on their mount, trying to pass, and getting farmed like that. Very rarely did I see them gather up and even try to kill the 3-4 horde players. “That’s how strong the choke is at IWB”, no that’s how bad the alliance play, and probably some of them were bots too.
Yes, when simplified the queue time makes AV bad honor per hour for horde, so why do they do it? The thing with AV is that horde players can queue up for it and then do premades or farm bots in WPvP or whatever, while for alliance you’re basically inside AV or you’re not doing AV. So, if you can use the AV queue time efficiently, like doing premades while queued, then for horde throwing in a game of AV can actually be very good for honor. Especially when WSG/AB queues are long and there are many ally premades, then joining your AV “pop” can actually give MORE honor, and this is never the case on alliance. If you join AV over premade on alliance then you lost at least half your honor for that time. Do you see now that queue times affect player behavior?
With 100% win chance yes. Maybe even with 66% maximum and 33% half honor chance worth it.
But for alliance: 33% win, 66% below 1K honor is obviously not worth it, queue time just make it even worse.
Still queue time does not explain the absence of alliance solo rankers from AV. Yeah AV cannot beat premading WSG or AB honor / hour even if the map would be 100% symmetrical. But being farmed by premades in AB or not playing at all is still better option for solo rankers than stepping their foot into AV, because guess what: people don’t like to play games they have zero chance to win.
I’ve seen the same on private servers: horde was dominating world pvp, wsg, ab but lost most AVs (the 1.6 original vanilla version), however their queue time was much better (alliance had to wait hours in the queue), they still did not enter AV at all.
Of course queue time affect player behavior, but it’s not what it led to 100% horde win, but the map design that lets horde follow a very simple tactics: zerg SH and have granted win.
When only 3-4 horde defending IWB choke then the rest of their team already at DB and killing the general. So there’s simply no time for killing those few horde and retaking SH GY to cut their reinforcement. That’s why people not even try to get through IWB at that time.
And when SH is taken and retaking it would at least reset the game for alliance, there are not only 3-4 horde at IWB but actually all of them blocking the IWB choke.
Very nicely written and tbh 100% true. But for horde its all lies. We just need to git gut.
Even when considering 50/50 wins, if done how I wrote before, because queue times and ally premades bringing WSG/AB honor rate down. The map imbalance plays a role as well. I’m not denying that.
Yes, it’s part of the explanation since queue time makes AV comparably much better on horde side than on alliance side and queue time is what lead the horde to the turtle meta in the first place. If queues stayed at around 5 min horde would have kept playing the rush meta that was present at launch of AV.
I’m talking about when horde is pushing SPGY.