The Titanforge Problem - A Potential Fix

[Lyonidus-tarren-mill (Lyonidus)]

@Sharja-burning-legion

No its not, I couldnt care less about gear, its just a tool, a means to an end. Going to be obsolete in few months anyways. Its killing the boss for the first time after 300 wipes is the best feeling in the world.

Not everyone has the same sentiment, it is just a tool, but some people really like that tool.
Sometimes it doesn’t get obsolete, look at Legion and Nighthold trinkets, warriors wanted that convergence of fate, they wanted it in Antorus even.

Killing the boss is the most satisfying part for me too, but it’s not for everybody.
Wouldn’t you agree that those 300 wipes should be rewarded somehow?
Perhaps by dropping the best loot in the game maybe?

@Sharja-burning-legion

Game is in a really good state right now. Except for class balance which is garbage.

General opinion says you’re wrong.
Not only class balance is bad, like you said, but classes themselves are not in a good state as well.
The azerite system is mostly disliked, the warfronts haven’t been accepted that well, the island expeditions are nothing special.
Not to mention that people are really tired of grinding for a system that’s gonna be way easier later and go away in the next expansion.

Only good thing that still remains in the game are raids, and dungeons if you’re into m+, but if you’re not raiding then the game doesn’t really have that much to offer you at the moment.

@Sharja-burning-legion

I am on of those. And most people in my guild doesn’t have issue with titanforging.

Yes, I’ve noticed that your guild is 5/9, which I wouldn’t say is anything special.
Did you ask every person in your guild on their opinion on titanforging?
Because if not then you’re doing exactly what you accused me of - speaking for somebody else.

From my experience what I said is still true, most mythic raiders dislike titanforging.

@Sharja-burning-legion

Before you say something stupid again, look up my old main on RIO. Check the logs, around hellfire citadel.

I can’t see your logs because I don’t know your old main’s name, I see your warlock but it doesn’t have logs for HFC.
I personally really don’t care for m+ or m+ scores on RIO but your score is very nice.

[Sharja-burning-legion]

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Wouldn’t you agree that those 300 wipes should be rewarded somehow?
Perhaps by dropping the best loot in the game maybe?

No, couldn’t care less. I would do raids even in green items if that would be possible.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

warriors wanted that convergence of fate, they wanted it in Antorus even.

Because it was broken, not because they just “wanted it”, things like that shouldn’t exist in the game: Arcanocrystal, Assurance of Consequence, Rune of Re-Origination

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

General opinion says you’re wrong.

There is no “general opinion”, on forums you just have whiners while others simply enjoy the game without spamming forum.

I like island expeditions, nobody is forcing you to do them.
I dont like warfronts so I dont do them, nobody is forcing me to do them.
Azerite gear is miles ahead of 4sets, there was a famous thread on MMOC about that.
Long story short: 4set was bis anyways, you didnt have any choice. It didn’t alter rotation that much (mostly 3-4 specs were affected per raid tier, now there are usually at least 2 traits that does alter rotation PER spec).

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Yes, I’ve noticed that your guild is 5/9, which I wouldn’t say is anything special.

So you didn’t check it, I see. Look again, my old main: Kaminaris
Check how many raid tiers I have completed and what was my logs around Hellfire Citadel.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Did you ask every person in your guild on their opinion on titanforging?
Because if not then you’re doing exactly what you accused me of - speaking for somebody else.

Yes I did, since I brought that topic on some other raid I thought was absurd.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

From my experience what I said is still true, most mythic raiders dislike titanforging.

I sincerely doubt that.

Now ask yourself a question: What the chances are someone not doing mythic raid will ever have so much luck to outgear average mythic raider? Some crazy low numbers.

[Dankdestiny-ragnaros (Dankdestiny)]

I’m not quite sure what your point is. While BoD is current and 415 is somewhat valuable, the payoff is getting use out of my 415 gear while it’s good.

Once the Eternal Palace comes out all my gear becomes trash tier anyway because that’s how the game works now. Doesn’t invalidate the mileage I get from the gear I currently have while I have it.

[Sharja-burning-legion]

Well, you just said it, the fact you worked on your tailoring items will ever invalidate the effort when you get upgrade from anywhere else.

[Lyonidus-tarren-mill (Lyonidus)]

@Sharja-burning-legion

No, couldn’t care less. I would do raids even in green items if that would be possible.

Well a lot of people do care, it’s why people didn’t bother re-killing G’huun for example, because he dropped really bad loot.

@Sharja-burning-legion

Because it was broken, not because they just “wanted it”, things like that shouldn’t exist in the game: Arcanocrystal, Assurance of Consequence, Rune of Re-Origination

So? It wasn’t obsolete like you always claimed gear to be.

@Sharja-burning-legion

There is no “general opinion”, on forums you just have whiners while others simply enjoy the game without spamming forum.

Yes only a small part of the playerbase goes to the forums but that doesn’t mean that everyone else that plays enjoys the game.

@Sharja-burning-legion

I like island expeditions, nobody is forcing you to do them.

No, but they’re the main source of artifact power so if you don’t want to let your team down, you’re gonna do them.

@Sharja-burning-legion

I dont like warfronts so I dont do them, nobody is forcing me to do them.

Almost nobody likes them, that’s the problem. Blizz wasted all that development time on something that majority of players don’t enjoy.

@Sharja-burning-legion

Azerite gear is miles ahead of 4sets, there was a famous thread on MMOC about that.
Long story short: 4set was bis anyways, you didnt have any choice. It didn’t alter rotation that much (mostly 3-4 specs were affected per raid tier, now there are usually at least 2 traits that does alter rotation PER spec).

I have NEVER met someone, on forums or ingame, who said this.
Ever since azerite gear came out, day 1 people were saying it was a bad system, how it’s not gonna solve the class problem and how it’s just worse than tier sets.

Tier sets actually added to your class, sometimes it was really powerful, sometimes it wasn’t but you still had to always take into account your tier set.

@Sharja-burning-legion

So you didn’t check it, I see. Look again, my old main: Kaminaris
Check how many raid tiers I have completed and what was my logs around Hellfire Citadel.

Nice logs, but the problem with logs is that they can easily be cheesed, especially on a tier that lasted as long as HFC.
I know because I’ve done it, I did it all the way throughout Legion.

@Sharja-burning-legion

Yes I did, since I brought that topic on some other raid I thought was absurd.

I doubt that but I’ll take your word for it.

@Sharja-burning-legion

Now ask yourself a question: What the chances are someone not doing mythic raid will ever have so much luck to outgear average mythic raider? Some crazy low numbers.

Yes low, it should be 0, but that wasn’t the point.
I even said in one of my earlier posts, it doesn’t affect good guilds that much, it is mostly hurting the casual playerbase that thinks they are getting the most value from titanforging.

[Sharja-burning-legion]

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

because he dropped really bad loot.

That is the problem with raid trinkets/weapons and the fact that re-killing boss never really was good idea once you had all the loot. GHun just didn’t drop mount. That was the only reason in the past.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

So? It wasn’t obsolete like you always claimed gear to be.

And that was the problem. Having to kill older tiers just to get some broken trinkets.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Yes only a small part of the playerbase goes to the forums but that doesn’t mean that everyone else that plays enjoys the game.

It also doesnt mean otherwise.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

No, but they’re the main source of artifact power so if you don’t want to let your team down, you’re gonna do them.

Not really. It is only efficient if you can island under 5 minutes. Otherwise you might as well go for WQ. Thankfully neck isnt all that powerful as weapons were.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Almost nobody likes them, that’s the problem. Blizz wasted all that development time on something that majority of players don’t enjoy.

Well it was a new feature. Still can be improved. I am looking forward to heroic ones.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

I have NEVER met someone, on forums or ingame, who said this.

Guess you don’t come often to forums then. Azerite system was bad only at the begining because you didnt have too much sources to get them. Things got improved in 8.1 and in 8.2 it will be pretty much complete as it will also not require to have neck leveled up.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Tier sets actually added to your class, sometimes it was really powerful, sometimes it wasn’t but you still had to always take into account your tier set.

Lets face the reality. Tier sets were a poor man attempt to fix class balance in raids. Didn’t really have much of a choice. Couldn’t get them from pvp. So they had a lot more drawbacks than azerite.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

it is mostly hurting the casual playerbase that thinks they are getting the most value from titanforging.

So let me clarify that from business perspective:
If not for titanforging casual players would burn out faster
Without casual playerbase blizz wouldnt have money to put it into game as new content
Everyone would be loosing on that.
Sure it is illusion but it works and it is not bothering neither casual nor hardcore players.

[Lyonidus-tarren-mill (Lyonidus)]

@Sharja-burning-legion

That is the problem with raid trinkets/weapons and the fact that re-killing boss never really was good idea once you had all the loot. GHun just didn’t drop mount. That was the only reason in the past.

G’huun’s loot on mythic was worse than most loot from other bosses on normal, it was that bad.
Don’t think there would be much more kills even if he dropped a mount, not everyone cares about boss mounts.

@Sharja-burning-legion

And that was the problem. Having to kill older tiers just to get some broken trinkets.

While I agree that loot from a new raid should generally be better, having some loot from the previous raid that is still better it totally fine imo. makes it so that raid isn’t dead content like most raids and is also a very rpg-like thing to exist.

@Sharja-burning-legion

It also doesnt mean otherwise.

Yes but you implied that everyone who’s not on the forums enjoys the game.
Let me reinstate my point then: the general opinion on the forums is that the game is in a bad state.

@Sharja-burning-legion

Guess you don’t come often to forums then. Azerite system was bad only at the begining because you didnt have too much sources to get them. Things got improved in 8.1 and in 8.2 it will be pretty much complete as it will also not require to have neck leveled up.

Yes I do often visit the forums but again I’ve never seen someone say that azerite gear is better than tier sets.
The fact that even Blizz admitted themselves that azerite armor is bad and that they are working on totally reworking it proves you wrong.
I don’t need to say anything else.

@Sharja-burning-legion

Lets face the reality. Tier sets were a poor man attempt to fix class balance in raids. Didn’t really have much of a choice. Couldn’t get them from pvp. So they had a lot more drawbacks than azerite.

What?
Sure they would sometimes get nerfed or buffed but class changes were always what changed class balance.
Pvp had its own sets, with resilience and pvp power or whatever other stats that were on pvp gear.

@Sharja-burning-legion

So let me clarify that from business perspective:
If not for titanforging casual players would burn out faster
Without casual playerbase blizz wouldnt have money to put it into game as new content
Everyone would be loosing on that.
Sure it is illusion but it works and it is not bothering neither casual nor hardcore players.

If not for titanforging those casual players could actually work to become better players and therefore get the better gear. It makes people feel more connected to the game and their characters.
It’s a better long term solution, to keep the rpg in mmorpg.
To keep and promote the social aspect of the game, the reason those casual players are playing in the first place.
Once the game gets boring titanforged loot isn’t what’s gonna keep players playing the game.

[Sharja-burning-legion]

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

the general opinion on the forums is that the game is in a bad state.

That is also false. Using that deduction this game was dead long time ago, has literally zero players and everything they do is garbage because most forum posts are just complaints.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Yes I do often visit the forums but again I’ve never seen someone say that azerite gear is better than tier sets.
The fact that even Blizz admitted themselves that azerite armor is bad and that they are working on totally reworking it proves you wrong.
I don’t need to say anything else.

Again, cant base opinion on just complaints.

Blizzard never said that, at the begining it was unobtainable. We got vendor.
Had to farm Azrite, it will be fully unlocked.
Some traits were OP.
But that is far less issues that tier sets had.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Pvp had its own sets, with resilience and pvp power or whatever other stats that were on pvp gear.

And it was dumb idea to have 2 sets of gear in bags. Force players to farm gear exclusively in pvp while being stomped on BGs.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

If not for titanforging those casual players could actually work to become better players and therefore get the better gear. It makes people feel more connected to the game and their characters.

You are assuming something that has no connection to reality. Casual player doesnt care about being better, they care about having fun.

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Once the game gets boring titanforged loot isn’t what’s gonna keep players playing the game.

This is why we are not waiting anymore a whole year for next expac like it was with MoP.

[Цэрэг-soulflayer]

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

Ok but then I ask you, why do you as a casual player need gear?

Such question may apply to anyone, that plays this game - for different reasons.

For example - I can’t play actual dungeons/raids at all, since I don’t have much time “in a row” for real life reasons.

So, I’m all about casual open-world activities only in alt+tab/pause mode.
But I still like the game and want to play it (means, can pay for it to Blizzard).

Should they satisfy my casual needs and give me shining things?
I bet, they should - to keep me interested.

“Forging” and slow ilvl increase is perfectly fits for people like me, since we still continue to get something “more shining”, that makes us happy.

ps. I don’t even think that “raiding” is the only thing in a game. Different people likes different sides of it.

[Lilîith-silvermoon]

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

If not for titanforging those casual players could actually work to become better players and therefore get the better gear. It makes people feel more connected to the game and their characters.
It’s a better long term solution, to keep the rpg in mmorpg.
To keep and promote the social aspect of the game, the reason those casual players are playing in the first place.
Once the game gets boring titanforged loot isn’t what’s gonna keep players playing the game.

this has been debumnked so many times that its ridiculous at this point.

this is how whole cata fiasco happened - because devs listened to hardcore audience and made milions leave game by upping difficulty level.

people dont look for chalenges in games simple as that.

also “connected to characters” really ? connected on personal level to pixels ? thats a sign of mental problems.

social aspect is live and vibrant - you are not looking for social aspect you are looking for self worth aspect in computer game - again - mental problems on horizon .

TF is simple - it gives people reason to rerun content X - something that game lacked desperately in past - notice how in legion nobody complained about lack of content. why ? because thorout whole 2 years they could run instances and always have possibility of reciving upgrades.

you are angry at the system because you want to be done with gearing in 2 months and unsub - something what was horrible in game in past and got solved by TF.

i understand that you dont like gringing on hamsterwheel of gear - but then mmorpgs are not for you - their very core is constant infinite grind.

[Chapchap-pozzo-delleternità]

I see a lot of people writing about envy, but personally i hate TF/WF because i care how my character performs and to perform well i need gear, gear with the right stats etc… I don’t care what other people get, not in the least. TF and WF only allows mindless farming. It should be capped at some point, and should have a path to obtain after some time to avoid too much rng, honestly if you like this sistem right now just go play slot machines, because if you care about gear it’s really frustrating to have all this rng. And if you don’t care about gear why even worry about the system and what happens to it, you’ll still be able to do the content you’re doing right now.
P.S. personally i would like it to go away copletely but i can understand that some people like it so just lower the ilvlit can TF to, make sockets not rng and give a clear progression option other than hope in luck.

[Sharja-burning-legion]

@Chapchap-pozzo-delleternità

I see a lot of people writing about envy, but personally i hate TF/WF because i care how my character performs and to perform well i need gear, gear with the right stats etc…

Let me burst your bubble: you dont
I could go all in mathematics and theorycrafting but the biggest difference in performance is using your cooldowns at the right moment, minimizing downtime, optimizing small things.

There is also a reason why “ilvl %” exists in warcraftlogs. Sure gear with perfect stats, bis trinkets can make few K difference but not as much as people think it will be vs average gear.

[Chapchap-pozzo-delleternità]

Obviously the most important thing is how you yourself play, but that doesn’t mean that stats don’t have mpact on gameplay and aren’t important on how you perform. If you know a fight and your class then they’re the only thing that can impact your gameplay other than rng on boss or rotation. Maybe i explained myself badly, I didn’t mean that stats would make me a better player. Sorry for the bad wording.

[Aérîth-eredar]

@Sharja-burning-legion

Guess you don’t come often to forums then. Azerite system was bad only at the begining because you didnt have too much sources to get them. Things got improved in 8.1 and in 8.2 it will be pretty much complete as it will also not require to have neck leveled up.

I have never met someone on the forums on either website, who likes the azerite system…
for me it is really bad, and it stayed bad… it is still bad even now…

do you think it is fun having to unlock the same trait over and over again? for example the prydaz trait, you probably unlocked it early in BFA, but then you got a stronger azerite piece, but you couldn’t unlock it, because your azerite level wasn’t high enough…

also the choice you are talking about is an illusion, if you try to optimize your gear, you will notice, that you need specific azerite gear… with specific traits…
just like the tier sets… but in case of the tier sets, the choice was limited by the secondary stats, in case of the azerite gear, there are no secondary stats, but there are still BIS traits

the 5th ring didn’t solve this problem…
I am looking forward to 8.2 I want to see, how that plays out… to be honest, it would have been way better, if they kept the azerite system like the artifact system…

@Sharja-burning-legion

Lets face the reality. Tier sets were a poor man attempt to fix class balance in raids. Didn’t really have much of a choice. Couldn’t get them from pvp. So they had a lot more drawbacks than azerite.

tier sets were a thing from the beginning of the game and it was fine… actually, with the azerite system turning out the way it did, I wish the tier sets back…

@Lyonidus-tarren-mill

While I agree that loot from a new raid should generally be better, having some loot from the previous raid that is still better it totally fine imo. makes it so that raid isn’t dead content like most raids and is also a very rpg-like thing to exist.

I can agree with that.
though I didn’t start playing until cata, I have heard, that in earlier wow players had different tier sets from different raids, because the difference wasn’t so big, and I think this is better than inflating the item level and making raids of the same expansion irrelevant

@Lilîith-silvermoon

people dont look for chalenges in games simple as that.

say that to all the dark souls, sekiro, and devil may cry players, say that to all the m+ pushers, and mythic raiders

@Lilîith-silvermoon

TF is simple - it gives people reason to rerun content X - something that game lacked desperately in past - notice how in legion nobody complained about lack of content. why ? because thorout whole 2 years they could run instances and always have possibility of reciving upgrades.

it doesn’t give me a reason to rerun content x… because one piece procced wrong messes up my stats… you should have seen my bank in legion multiple pieces in multiple item levels, just to balance out my stats again after a piece I got procced too high…

if it is impossible to reach my goal, there is no reason for me to do the content…

@Lilîith-silvermoon

you want to be done with gearing in 2 months and unsub - something what was horrible in game in past and got solved by TF.

for me, if I am done with my character, I start another one… for example in SoO, I was done with my priest, so I started doing all of this again on my hunter… well I didn’t reach my goal on my hunter though…

@Lilîith-silvermoon

i understand that you dont like gringing on hamsterwheel of gear - but then mmorpgs are not for you - their very core is constant infinite grind.

WoW wasn’t like that before…
have you ever read the topics about burnout… they started in Legion, because of the infinite artifact level grind… high end players wanted to keep themselves up to date, but the infinite grind made it hard and the titanforging made it worse… players trying to get the best gear availaible, to keep up with the world first race were burning out and unsubbing… taking breaks or whatever they did, to stop playing

@Sharja-burning-legion

There is also a reason why “ilvl %” exists in warcraftlogs. Sure gear with perfect stats, bis trinkets can make few K difference but not as much as people think it will be vs average gear.

it sure makes a big difference for a few classes, for example if a class is very dependend on haste, it WILL do WAY more damage, with optimised stats…

[Lilîith-silvermoon]

@Aérîth-eredar

WoW wasn’t like that before…
have you ever read the topics about burnout… they started in Legion, because of the infinite artifact level grind… high end players wanted to keep themselves up to date, but the infinite grind made it hard and the titanforging made it worse… players trying to get the best gear availaible, to keep up with the world first race were burning out and unsubbing… taking breaks or whatever they did, to stop playing

true - and before tony minority complaining about burnout there was a huge crowd complaining for years how they have nothing to do in game besides logging in for raid night

this is how TF was born , this is how AP was born

because people played like you and after 2 months they had nothing to do in game besides logging in for raid.

now they how so ofc some people whine they cant get BiS - well tough sh.t out of 2 alternatives this one is better because it keeps milions playing

[Aérîth-eredar]

@Lilîith-silvermoon

because people played like you and after 2 months they had nothing to do in game besides logging in for raid.

nothing to do? I had a lot of alts to equip, I didn’t unsub after finishing… some players did, but not all of them…

now I can’t even finish 1 character, so I can’t start a second… and because I have no realistic goals, there is no reason for me to play… so I do the raid once and take a break, while, when we didn’t have TF, I would have kept playing, trying to reach my goal

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Punyelf-draenor

Blizz recognises there is an issue but don’t currently know how to fix it.

An issue is different from ‘the system sucks’. It’s a GOOD system. Just needs a little finetuning.

[Sugavac-draenor]

Cut the crap, I’m tired of your bullshi* already. Do you even realize that not all players like to play alts. And this what Lilîith said is correct. You don’t even play your priest atm in an any serious content, you haven’t finished not even a heroic raid, you haven’t done any serious m+ content. If you played for some time you would know how you can also hit the max level atm with the gearing to, just the difference is that if we would got to what you propose now a lot of the players would be done with that much faster.

[Aérîth-eredar]

well, well, can you please stop attacking me?

it is true, that not all players like to play alts, but I don’t like to rely on luck to finish my character… I don’t do serious content, because I don’t have a goal anyway… I have no reason to even start…

at the moment my only goal is to do as many bosses as possible until 8.2 then, my goal will be to beat the last boss heroic, after that I will take a break again, because there is nothing to do after that… I hate M+ so I have no reason to do that

[Sugavac-draenor]

You deserved that, because you are douche, you are talking about the stuff you have no clue about. And the current system is way better because it gives to the players a reason to play longer their characters. In it if you play for some time you can also optimize your character and get with the time all the gear you want to.