How can you not bring up the biggest game of racism, elder scrolls. Every race seems to think the other is trash in that game (though argonians are 
)
Talking about tropes. A famous woman got the jean Grey treatment which is one of the worst crap females get thrown at in popular culture.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AxCrazy
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FaceHeelTurn
Another example Daenerys from game of thrones got hit with this one
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmbitionIsEvil
Yeah I think WoW shouldn’t implement moden RL morals to this game. Races are artificial after all and they are set on different cultures.
As A troll I don’t give a damn what would human think about troll cultures and belives and neither would want to listen to any moral crap talk for example.
And same goes the other way around I don’t think a gnome would get along with a tauren just because Tauren are supposed to be goodspirited.
Heck even within the factions there should be clashes. Just because they’re part of the same organisation doesn’t mean that they see eye to eye and don’t have any differences.
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Yes, AND later on that same female character failed to do the same thing.
For the Horde players, Sylvanas managed to do what Garrosh (the toxic masculin character) never acomplished.
Except for the fact that he accomplished the same thing.
… because Jaina appeared and because later Aleria showed up.
Two female characters defeating one, but Sylvanas already predicted that and tried to kill everyone in the throne room and Jaina saved everyone.
The point is about Sylvanas, who was later on defeated all the same. You can remove Alleria since she fell for the trap too. Jaina did too and only escaped narrowly.
How many times female characters, like Sylvanas, Jaina, Tyrande, Talanji or even Geya’rah, were praised, by the players, for being, strong, in other words: what their faction needed ?
It’s almost like people are not a hivemind and there are a lot of players who also praised Varian, Thrall, Vol’jin, Greymane, Cairne, or Garrosh.
How many times male characters, like Anduin, Baine, Saurfang, Thrall, Lor’themar were considered “weak” even “traitors” by the players, because this is WARcraft and not PEACEcraft ?
Only Baine. He is the only one who’s considered a traitor. And that has nothing to do with gender. He’s a traitor who happens to be male. He isn’t a traitor because he’s male. He could be a woman and people would still call him a traitor.
You’re grasping at straws to find an agenda that, for once, isn’t there. Gender has nothing to do with the strength or weakness of these characters. N’Zoth identifies as male and he could stomp any female character you mentioned. Nathanos is a Gary Stu.
Another example Daenerys from game of thrones got hit with this one
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmbitionIsEvil
The difference, of course, being that Sylvanas was a declared psychopath for 15 years, while Daenerys wasn’t.
Excuse me, Robert Baratheon was right???
Fair enough.
How many of those characters are in BfA ?
Thrall and Greymane.
- Thrall is hated by a good portion of the Horde player base for siding with Saurfang and Baine.
- Greymane, his best moment was probably when he decided to side with Tyrande and leave Anduin.
You see the discussion is only about BfA narrative, as I said:
3 female characters clashing in a scenario none was allowed to win or kill the other.
- Write a victory for Jaina and Aleria and Sylvanas will look bad.
- Write a victory for Sylvanas and Jaina and Aleria will look bad.
Very well.
What about Saurfang ?
" Saurfang is a stupid old orc who mumbles about honor while seeking nothing but a warrior’s death for himself. He doesn’t care about the victory if it wasn’t achieved honorably in his eyes, and he’d lead an army to defeat and his soldiers to their untimely deaths as long as he believes that it was the honorable thing to do.
Saurfang cannot comprehend that “muh honor” doesn’t win wars. In fact, it has no contribution to victory at all. Baine is also cut from the same cloth, and both Saurfang and him must be killed, preferably at players hand. Much better if they are killed dishonorably such as by being poisoned or stabbed in the back, so that they’d be deprived from the thing they value most, an honorable death.
Sylvanas, on the other hand, also is far from being my favourite. But if I have to choose between Sylvanas and Saurfang & Baine, I’d choose Sylvanas any time.
One more for Sylvanas from me. I have characters on both factions."
- Remember this topic ?
“It’s official now - Saurfang is traitor”
That new cinematic… another backstab to the horde pride.
Before - some could assume he will do stuff alone. Now he’s actually teaming up with Alliance
“I hoped you could stop her”
Yeah. Lets kill him"
- Theres a comment from Erevien:
Cover me surprised. No problems siding against Zappy Boi on all my alts. Screw Saurfang and all his Anduin bootlicking friends. I told you so btw. Gonna replay the Lordaeron Scenario just to grab the Blightthrower another time.
- There’s also a comment from you:
“I… I do not doubt that our wise King seeks only the best for us, his noble people. But he is too lenient with that animal. Trust an Orc, and you will be served with a knife in your back.”
Now let us try to find a similar character within the female roster from both factions, similar to: Baine or Saurfang.
I can’t find anyone, who players would call a traitor and that’s including both the Alliance and the Horde.
Also. I mentioned:
Being “weak”, for me, means, doing things people would consider inappropriate for war times, things that probably would go against your factions insterests, here’s a few examples:
Baine retrieving Derek to Jaina:
Saurfang saying to Anduin: “I hoped that you would stop her.”
Anduin: “I can’t.
Not, alone.”
*Opens the prison door.
Again, let us try to find female characters in this type of situation from both factions, I can’t find none.
You might point Jaina.
But she only went after Anduin explicitly asked her to go.
Her High King asked her.
Very well, name three badass characters from both sides, in BfA male characters.
Surely you can find them, it’s Alliance+Horde.
I can find three, all female characters, their alignment: evil, neutral or good doesn’t come to place:
- Tyrande.
- Jaina.
- Sylvanas.
You named Nathanos, that’s one, only two remaining.
And by the way that guy is plaged with Sylvanas blind obedience, but I will consider him a badass, not on Varian, Ga’Nar level for sure.
My opinion as well:
Consider this not a “My point of view is better than yours” because it’s not, I am just interested in reading your opinion as I said before:
Cheers.
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Forshadowing is still not character development.
He wasn’t right. You don’t kill a little baby just because she might snap one day. Your “evidence” to support that merely being her family name (let’s ignore the fact that only a small fraction of the Targaryens was actually insane).
Fair enough.
How many of those characters are in BfA ?
Thrall and Greymane.Thrall is hated by a good portion of the Horde player base for siding with Saurfang and Baine. Greymane, his best moment was probably when he decided to side with Tyrande and leave Anduin.You see the discussion is only about BfA narrative, as I said:
Convenient. We are just going to ignore the previous expansion which had a lot more male lead characters.
3 female characters clashing in a scenario none was allowed to win or kill the other.
Yes, and the fact that they are females has nothing to do with the outcome, that’s the point. You assume there’s an agenda when it could just be coincidence.
Very well, name three badass characters from both sides, in BfA male characters.
Surely you can find them, it’s Alliance+Horde.
Aside from the fact that “badass” is a subjective term, here are three characters often aknowledged as badass:
- Nathanos
- Rastakhan
- Tandred
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As I said: the last expansions had no narrative issues for me.
I was playing them.
I can’t say the same for BfA.
And by issues I mean: WoT, killing civilians, blighting everything front and center, resurrecting dead enemies, scourge style.
It could and it could not.
Alliance incompetence regarding the attack of Lordaeron.
Where was Aleria and Jaina ?
I guess Anduin and Genn are the only ones to be blamed, for not bringing masks, to the more than predictable, fact that Sylvanas would use Blight.
They needed to be saved from their incompetence by their female counterparts.
That’s how I see it.
Glad to see Rastakhan in your list. Thanks.
Too bad he was already replaced, even before BfA started.
Talanji is the one who is looking angry at Jaina in the cover.
Cheers.
Yeah, they had no narrative issues for you because the main characters were Illidan, Khadgar, and Velen.
Where was Aleria and Jaina ?
They were blindly following Anduin into Sylvanas’ trap.
They needed to be saved from their incompetence by their female counterparts.
- They are not their female counterparts. Also Mekkatorque helped with Alleria;
- They were incompetent too (Jaina also fell for that trap);
- You are starting from the assumption that they had an agenda, and failed to prove that.
This is sad. You are usually so much better than this. Your arguments in this topic are very cringey, not going to lie. You’re seeing an agenda when there isn’t one. The entire Alliance is written like fools. Jaina makes Anduin’s same mistake in 8.1.5. At the same time, Anduin had his own badass moment in the cinematic trailer of the expansion. Without even taking into account the fact that the main villain of the expansion is a crazy woman.
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But he was right. Daenarys did in fact bring the Dothraki Horde across the sea, pillage burn and ruin a city and a million(?) innocent people with it.
He was 100% right about Dany, and we got lots of examples of her madness throughout the seasons.
Factually, he was right. Was he morally right in his decision? In hindsight, yeah. Absolutely. Not in hindsight? Well, he had a sound argument for it.
He wasn’t factually right. Daenerys’ madness (aside from meta reasons, as in it was extremely forced and rushed) was the result of chain of unfortunate events that nobody could have foreseen. It’s not just “well, she is a Targaryen, coin flip lul” and I don’t care what the writers spout out of their mouths.
Besides, if he killed Daenerys, Daenerys wouldn’t have saved Jon, which means that the Night King would have won and annihilated mankind.
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You got proof for that? You could make an argument that she was driven to madness, but equally you could make the case that she was in fact mad from the start.
That doesn’t matter though. What matters is what happened. And RB was 100% right about what she’d do.
The proof is that the vast majority of the Targaryens weren’t crazy. She was driven to madness, she literally lost all those she loved after season 6.
Yes, dude, look how mad she was in season 3:
That doesn’t matter though. What matters is what happened. And RB was 100% right about what she’d do.
“The circumstances don’t matter. Her traumatic backstory doesn’t matter.”
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…That’s just probability, that’s not proof.
Many characters did that in the show- Including Davos, but he didn’t go mad.
How do you exactly distinguish which of her demeanour was a result of the things that happened to her, and which was the result of her latent madness/susceptibility?
Honestly what she went through is quite tame in the context (Asoiaf) we’re considering things.
…That’s just probability, that’s not proof.
That’s proof that Daenerys wasn’t mad because of a stupid coin flip. That’s just an excuse people like you come up with to explain a rushed character assassination.
Also, your statement that Robert was right is just hilarious. No, he wasn’t right to kill her. He didn’t want to kill her because he had some prophetic dream that showed him what would happen, he wanted to do that simply because she had the surname “Targaryen” slapped onto her name and the vague assumption that she’d rally the dothraki against Westeros. Let alone the fact that he wanted to kill her while she was pregnant. You’re sick if you think you’re justified in killing a pregnant woman.
Many characters did that in the show- Including Davos, but he didn’t go mad.
Lol what. Davos didn’t have a brother that abused her (threatened to abuse him sexually as well) and literally gave him nightmares.
Also, it’s almost like people react differently to hardship.
How do you exactly distinguish which of her demeanour was a result of the things that happened to her, and which was the result of her latent madness/susceptibility?
She literally lost the second of her children and her dearest friend in the previous episode, on top of having the man she loved the most reject her.
Honestly what she went through is quite tame in the context (Asoiaf) we’re considering things.
Right dude, right. Remind me of the Stark children, who had such a rough childhood. Having to survive in the streets, every day being a struggle, hunted by a foreign king… Oh wait.
Now, if we’re done talking about Game of Thrones, I’d like to point out how Arthas did nothing wrong. He was just trying to keep Sylvanas under control so that she wouldn’t burn Teldrassil. He was right to invade Quel’thalas and kill 90% of its people if it meant Sylvanas would be put under control.
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That’s literally how George R.R martin wrote the story. Supposedly, each time a targaryen is born, gods flip a coin to see whether they’ll be mad or not. That’s not my excuse, that’s just a fact.
Robert was right about her going mad and burning villages (cities) and bringing the Dothraki over the sea to loot and pillage in her name. She even promised that to them, so…
He was right.
Debatable.
Would it have been kinder to kill her after the pregnancy, then?
It’s a bad thing to do either way, but in hindsight he was right about it.
Big brain moment here btw: If Dany hadn’t survived and brought up her dragons, the Night King wouldn’t have gotten past the wall and would have been contained there for all eternity.
That doesn’t answer the question.
Yeah, some go mad, and some don’t.
Well, a number of things, but Stratholme certainly wasn’t one of them.
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That’s a weak excuse, it’s not a fact. That’s a coincidence assumed to be true by a few characters in the story, it’s not a meta statement by the writer. As all children borne of incests, there is a higher chance of innate madness, but that’s very different from literally claiming that a child is born either sane or insane, especially when it’s not so simple (for example, Aerys became mad only after multiple years into his reign).
Robert was right about her going mad and burning villages (cities) and bringing the Dothraki over the sea to loot and pillage in her name. She even promised that to them, so…
He was right.
Daenerys literally lost everything she held dear to defend the world against the white walkers, that’s the reason why she went mad, and a big role in her descent into madness was played by Robert’s own wife Cersei. So no, Robert still wasn’t right, because Daenerys didn’t destroy King’s Landing due to always being mad or some BS like that, but because she was pushed by awful people around her into that state.
He still wasn’t right, though, in wanting to kill an innocent woman who did nothing wrong at that point and who was also carrying a child.
Would it have been kinder to kill her after the pregnancy, then?
No, because she had done nothing wrong at that point.
Big brain moment here btw: If Dany hadn’t survived and brought up her dragons, the Night King wouldn’t have gotten past the wall and would have been contained there for all eternity.
Except, you know, for the fact that he could just go around the Wall because during winter the sea near the shoreline freezes.
Well, a number of things, but Stratholme certainly wasn’t one of them.
Neither was killing Sylvanas and enslaving her soul. He only did that to ensure she wouldn’t burn Teldrassil.
This is hardly the place for a Game of Thrones discussion though, so I would rather get back on the topic. Very clearly we will never agree.
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It is a fact thought. The author is the god of the universe who decides which way things go- And this is how it went, in the show (though the last season(s) weren’t his handwriting)- But the point remains the same.
Did she go mad from just the trauma she experienced? Maybe.
Or did she go mad from being a targaryen? Maybe. We’ll never know.
What we do know however is that how things panned out- And Robert Baratheon foreshadowed exactly those things that happened- Which means, consequently, that he was right, whether or not it was because Dany was driven to that fate or not.
But right he was, all the same.
Maybe, but she made the decision to do so.
One often meets their destiny on the path they take to avoid it…
So why didn’t they? It was winter already- Not to mention that the wall actually continues into the sea, just like the great wall of china does, to prevent exactly that.
You could also say that why didn’t they just traverse it like the wildlings did- But, they didn’t. So obviously something prevented them from doing it (as we know).
Well, he didn’t succeed in his plan to prevent Sylvanas from avenging the deaths of the Shatterspear Tribe.
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I won’t address your Game of Thrones points since I already countered them and I already asked you to stop derailing the thread.
Well, he didn’t succeed in his plan to prevent Sylvanas from avenging the deaths of the Shatterspear Tribe.
There was nothing to avenge. They joined Garrosh knowing the consequences of that bold decision.
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