Gear was a sufficient alt barrier.
gearing alts and main at the same time is never easy. if that is the problem you have with wow, then you probably had a similar problem since day one of vanilla.
It wasnât that hard in 9.0.5
50:50 on this.
I believe they listen to the playerbase to much but they also either completely jump the gun or just completely go on a tangent for what the players ask for.
The funny thing is, WoW suffers from being king.
Being king - letâs take CoD for example seeing as itâs part of, you have to innovate. So you either take things from other games and add your own twist or completely reinvent.
Now for those not in the know, Sledgehammer came around after their inclusion with MW3 and brought out Advanced Warfare - opinions aside it mixed up the usual for CoD.
They got hammered for it. But the players screamed innovation, new, fresh etc etc.
Point being - when youâre king, no matter what you do, the people who dislike it will always be the loudest because the ones enjoying it are to busy playing.
Putting aside Blizzâs recent pitfall, ultimately - I donât care what anyone says - WoW is still one of, if not the best MMORPG experience you can get.
Iâm not saying this as a fanboy either, Iâve tried all the rest, I can detach myself from WoW and play an MMO without going âoh but in WoWâ 24/7.
So what do you do? You listen to the players, they will still complain because they donât think long term, they just want what âthey thinkâ they want. Heard it before? Because itâs true.
Not just for WoW, but many titles.
So for me, I find it hard to criticise a game that does exactly what the playerbase asks only to see 90% of the people who asked for it moan about it after itâs implemented.
Of course theyâve made poor decisions, because they need to innovate, add longevity, itâs an ageing game.
This game has had its day and people need to start accepting that, it canât and shouldnât be around forever. If they decide to reboot, remake whatever.
Iâm just happy I was able to experience it as it grew and progressed. Iâve enjoyed my journey and will continue to do so.
thats because shadowlands offer only one type of content. do mythic+/raid and then leave the game.
so it makes it easier.
but when the game offers so much more, and you enjoy doing the âotherâ stuff. its not as easy to find the time for everything.
That Blizzard has continually ignored player feedback until the expansion reaches a catastrophic state and they have no choice but to implement widely asked for QoL changes that fix fundamental design flaws that were identified as far back as the beta?
Iâm glad youâve realized this.
Since when have they chased player feedback? Yes, Shadowlands removed a lot of things BFA had, but so did BFA remove systems from Legion that were widely regarded as good. And Legion removed systems from WoD that were also regarded as good.
Blizzard reinvents the wheel every expansion. Thatâs not chasing player feedback. If they did, we wouldnât have the mess we have.
When did players decide that they didnât like deterministic gearing for PvP? Because I cannot recall a time people ever thought otherwise. In fact ever since they removed pvp gear vendors, players have been asking for it back. Which they only got in Shadowlands.
You seem to be attributing Blizzardâs own weird decisions to mythical player feedback that is so powerful as to make Blizzard change things on a whim, when that is plainly not the case.
After an entire expansion of players begging for it. Which you overlook.
yes, it is. Iâm glad we agree that Blizzard continually ignoring feedback given in critical feedback phases such as beta or PTR is a stupid design process.
No, they really donât. Again, I point you at Shadowlands 9.0. 9 months of Blizzards vision with a dearth of content, broken covenant balance ( with several covenants being essentially non-functional for several classes, such as Necrolord Warrior or Necrolord Demon Hunter ) and bugged raids. To Blizzardâs credit, they made constant adjustments to Nathria to make it less of a mess, but it was launched in that state despite feedback.
The constant change is a byproduct of Blizzard trying to continually reinvent the wheel, expansion after expansion, abandoning perfectly functional and enjoyable systems after an entire expansion spent fixing them to reach that enjoyable state and starting over from scratch.
Again, I only have to point at this very expansion for recent evidence of this. Or BFA. We went from a polished, enjoyable experience in Legion 7.2 and 7.3, barring Legendaries, to a ramshackle wagon in BFA 8.0
I think youâre making stuff up at this point given that we have seen Ion double down on bad decisions that are only now being reversed in 9.1.5 PTR.
Or, more likely, weâre deeply invested in this game and want to see it succeed, and yet at every turn we see developers too arrogant to acknowledge their mistakes endlessly repeating those very same mistakes again and again.
It is incredibly frustrating after multiple expansions, going through the same loop of âExpansion announced, goes into beta, critical flaws spotted and reported on by playerbase, playerbase is ignored for multiple patches before Blizzard fixes said flaws, then moves onto the next expansionâ.
Saying that Blizzard chases our feedback is such a blatant twisting of reality. Every change implemented in this game brought about by player feedback has been given begrudgingly by Blizzard, after trusting their:
to the point where the systems they chose to implement have fallen apart functionally. Azerite Armour was essentially untested before it went live, it was added a week before launch in the beta, and took them two patches to fix things pointed out in that beta phase, in the brief period of testing they had.
I get that you want Blizzard to stand tall and straight backed about their own decisions but quite frankly, they do this anyway even when the systems theyâve built are burning around them and players leave by the thousand to other games.
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Thatâs not the issue I have. The issue is that not only I have to farm gear, I would then have to farm renown, legendaries and conduits.
boreghast is simple and fast. just dont get a stupid group.
renown, you get it by playing the game and doing quests. sometimes you do 2 quests at the same time. you can also spread it, like 1 renown a day until weekly cap.
conduits, you get them through doing stuff. there is no really a reason to hunt for them. you do the world quests/raids and its done.
these things, once you do them, you are done for the day/week.
nothing else to do on shadowlands. its all assignments. no fun.
Words are the hidden dividers.
A and B both agree âInclusion is importantâ, but their definitions of âInclusionâ are miles apart, and when a decision has to be made, and the abstract has to become real, the cracks show, and result in ill-feeling and distrust.
Same with a lot of words representing abstractions in the speech of activists.
1 Like
Itâs boring yeah, so cba doing on main, let alone on alts.
The issue is that there are 80 ranks to get. So it takes a ton of time.
The only reliable way of upgrading those is archivist codex.
Still the game was better off without those systems nobody asked for. Heck, Iâd say if there were less systems then weâd get more content. Itâs a win win.
here is the problem.
80 ranks are not critical
80 ranks are just for the achievement and mogs. the ONLY ones you need are domination quests and stamina boost.
the rest are complete waste of time.
stop killing yourself for the renown. it doesnt affect your gameplay.
I mean they even made My Little Pony about politics
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10050089/Now-Little-Pony-goes-woke-Netflixs-political-movie-shows-baddies-anti-science.html
Blizzard will release an expansion and immediately throw all the content up for discussion.
Itâs almost implied that the reason why the patches exist is so Blizzard can address all the feedback players have.
Theyâre not so much Content or Systems patches as theyâre âListening to Player Feedbackâ patches.
Thatâs the name of the game. Release some stuff and spend a while afterward addressing peopleâs ideas and suggestions for that stuff, so they feel involved and invested in the process. Like theyâre part of the development team! Yay! Weâre important! Player engagement!
Then repeat that process for the next expansion.
During WoD.
Whatâs the constant creeping complaint that comes up with regards to PvP gearing? The time it takes to gear up. Especially with alts. Itâs just a grind. A long grind.
So the obvious thought that eventually creeps into the heads of PvPers isâŠ: âWhy not just get rid of gearing? No more grinding then.â
And then the feedback flows.
Right. Itâs irrelevant. Players started begging in BfA after the design for BfA was already finalized and Blizzard donât change that kind of design mid-expansion. But they changed it as soon as they could, which was with the coming of Shadowlands.
Yes, but why do you think they do this?
For Blizzard thereâs no reason to embark on extra work just for the heck of it. Blizzard donât have any incentive to overhaul any part of the game design unless players tell them to. Itâs not like they bother revamping Fishing, because thereâs not a whole lot of demand for it. So why spend the development time and resources on something no one cares about and which wonât earn them any money?
Blizzard donât re-invent the wheel for fun. They do it because we tell them to.
But I think itâs worth questioning whether itâs very sustainable to keep re-inventing the same product over and over, instead of just establishing once and for all how it should be and then spend the time and resources on making it bigger within that established design.
But maybe thatâs just me and others like the whole feedback relationship they have going on with Blizzard.
Renown are tied to conduits. And yes, Iâm not killing myself by not playing alts.
not to a point of game changing situation.
you want to be a world first/MDI/pvp competition ? get these renown. you want to be a normal player who is doing mythic raiding on personal pace ? you wont need it.
Youâre extremely fascinating to watch follow the exact opposite line of thought and still arrive at the same conclusion as me, but still somehow deny itâs existence.
This is literally what players have been asking for since BFA. This is the process the Blizzard of old used to follow. Classic to Wrath. Cata to WoD. Refinement of what worked, and aside from a few small things that needed to be hammered out such as MoPâs Reps to Unlock More Reps, or Wrathâs abuse of the welfare gear system idea, were all regarded as great expansions.
Youâre on the cusp of grasping the reality of the situation, but you still try and deny the truth of it, that Blizzard continually ignore the evidence shown in front of them and wait until itâs all on fire before deigning to respond and fix it.
Blizzard simply do not react to feedback unless it reaches critical mass on their own official routes, or if itâs posted enough times on twitter. And when they do, they act as if theyâre being gracious and generous, denying their own culpability in the mess that is being shouted about.
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I would argue that Blizzard still iterates on their design in the same manner today. Which is fine. I have no problem with that per se.
I just donât think the players should steer the ship as much as I believe they do.
Nah, I just donât agree with the way you perceive the situation. But thatâs okay.
Again my point being that perhaps they shouldnât build up this idea that they listen to feedback, take feedback into consideration, and make changes based on feedback if the player perception is that they donât listen to feedback, donât take feedback into consideration, and donât make changes based on feedback.
I donât see the benefit of players wrestling with Blizzard over control of the design development of the game, or Blizzard elevating random people on the internet to game designers because they have ideas and suggestions, and otherwise not claiming much authority over their own product and the design vision behind it.
But thatâs just me.
And just to circle it back to the thread itself, then that is why I appreciate a developer coming out and defending the changes theyâre making, because finally someone at Blizzard is willing to claim some authority and take ownership over their own product. Good on them.
Wait, werenât you saying at the start of the tread that âBlizzard should stop listening to playersâ? Now you are saying that Blizzard arenât listening to players and we are clinging to misguided hope. Which one is it?
How does this address the quote ? I mean I say âI think Blizzard should listen to playersâ and you go âOh, thatâs why you donât like the game, you cling to hopeâ.
And I donât think WoW should get rid of any players, especially now.
You are going to lose that wager. Not many would think that they are more than a customer, they simply want the company to provide what they are paying for and are offering feedback as to what they want since the company is clueless atm.
Again no one thinks that. Itâs just silly at this point for Blizzard to not listen after 3 flops (WoD, BfA and SL) and one divisive (Legion) expansion.
Look we all know companies care about the whales more. In Blizzards case its the people that buy store mounts/6 month subs and WoW tokens.
However, you can have it both ways you know ? Keep the in-game store, keep the pay-to-win mentality even, just stop with the systems on top of systems, there is absolutely no monetary value to them, no one was buying or selling carries for Island Expeditions (for AP farming, they were for leveling), and with renown⊠how do you even monetize that ?
And as a bonus I could guarantee you that people that complain now would care a lot less that a new store mount is being added if the game had something to keep them in the actual game and away from the forums.
They have to, but they donât. Azeite armor prove that, hell even the conduit energy change proved it when they straight up admitted that âIt brings no value to the gameâ. Each patch contradicts the design philosophy of the one that came before. Even the story canât go 3 chapters in row without contradicting itself or retconing stuff.
And Blizzard are really if not extremely predictable.
WoW has had 3 eras, Classic-WotLK, Cata-WoD and now Legion-SL. I would bet money that 10.0 will be the start of the 4th era of WoW, where the design drastically changes, now we are yet to see if said design will be good or bad. Also Ion did promise (not that his word means anything) that next expansion they will be moving away from the borrowed power expansion feature.
The game is not succeeding on anything, certainly not on peoples âhopes and promises of a better tomorrowâ.
Like I said WoW has eras, so yeah itâs just a phase. If itâs not well. 2 flops in a roll brought us down to >2 mill lets see what 3 does.
I get that you want Blizzard to keep experimenting, but at what point do you consider the experiment a disaster ?
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Off this deserves a separate reply sorry for the spam Jito.
Yes, however the players said that they didnât want them because they were boring and felt like chores. What we got is Choreghast (which i enjoyed before the rework but it still felt like a chore because it was mandatory). If Blizzard are incapable of reading past the first line thatâs on them.
Yes and we got the most cookie cutter systems to date, because Blizzard decided to add power at the cost of aesthetic and cosmetics.
We didnât get any of that in SL, Blizzard tried to copy the designs of other games however The Maw has Soulslike mechanics and Torghast was marketed as a roguelike (it failed to be one however, miserably).
Correction SL was marketed as an RPG.
World Quests with more steps does not make an RPG.
And we got moreâŠ
Those 2 are good, good job Blizzard. We can talk about the implementation and the cost but yeah, better than before.
No different than BfA where they didnât listen to player feedback.
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I read it, but it is from Reddit. It was posted by a level 10 Classic player. They kind of have become the new Human Male Paladin Meme. Itâs Reddit. Most people there have a room temperature IQ. I mean some of them believe Stealth Fighters are -actually Invisible- (Like Donny Trumpo, who decided that the only reason he could see them despite touching them, was because he was President and that gave him powersâŠBecause that is completely how it -works-!)
SoâŠnah, anyone taking that seriously is not worth taking seriously.