Titanforging is here to stay

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

@Gráinne-earthen-ring

Let’s face it, not everybody is able to clear all content staight up the way the people in Method and Exorsus can; everybody else needs help, and soft-nerfs of raid bosses by making more gear available seems as sensible as anything else, and a lot more sensible than directly nerfing bosses.

Yet Uldir has had the same barriers we’ve seen before. The actual nerfs are needed to get people through the content and WF/TF isn’t the solution.

[Erector-silvermoon (Erector)]

Yeah it’s not a solution, but it’s part of it, for now at least, only one solution with gear and progress can be no gear at all in terms of stats, and I guess azerite gear is first step in that direction, like in the end we will have no stats, but gear unblocking abilities or empowering existing one, like talents did before.
Mythic guilds already show that gearing for most of hardcore players not a big timegate, and for casuals it’s not the main aim, so why even have all those stats?Big part of community sell gear runs and big part buy it, so why even gate content behind gear, make it all cosmetic and playstile wise and we good.

[Amaelia-silvermoon (Amaelia)]

I wasn’t playing during that time so I don’t have much in the way of context, but from what I’m reading the Nighthold bosses were tuned with certain Artifact weapon levels in mind. According to a tweet from Ion Hazzikostas (and I quote):

Star Augur onwards were indeed tuned for 54, but that’s because we looked at the audience and the audience was already at 54.

So what we would have to do is look at the number of guilds who had this requirement on all their raid members and yet still were stuck at 3/10M. The BFA equivalent would be guilds where every player had 10 stacks of origination array and couldn’t clear Uldir.

That said, this whole argument revolves around the logic that every guild that steps into Mythic Uldir deserves, given enough time, to clear it. My response to this would be “why?”.

This in my opinion is one of the failures of having raid seasons as opposed to a continuous linear progression like we saw in TBC. There is a perception that if you don’t fully clear all difficulties in a raid before the next raid is released, you have failed. Compare that to TBC where every raid team progressed at their own pace, and unless you were going for realm firsts there was no real pressure to clear each raid in a certain time period.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

@Gráinne-earthen-ring

To be fair, there have been several times in the years I’ve played when the buzz was that guilds were “breaking” on a boss in a raid.

I think nerfing bosses is still incorrect approach tho.
I think first hotfix was needed, but after few guilds killed Ghuun in first 1-3 weeks. nerfs are extra.
mythic raiding’s supposed to be the “hardest” tier, but all the nerfs talk against it.
I feel like blizzard has “x” goal where they want “y” amount of guilds to get CE lol. (aproximately 12%)
if you check datas its more or less around that number.

@Gráinne-earthen-ring

https ://www. mmo-champion. com/threads/2174481-Over-2000-guilds-stuck-at-3-10-mythic-was-tuning-7-bosses-to-54-traits-a-mistake

basically what 3rd comment said there.
gear isnt the problem for guilds who fail to kill a boss, when other guilds killed the boss with wayyy less gear and less azerite. it has more to do with guild having not enough competent players.

p.s how do I post links?

@Gráinne-earthen-ring

Let’s face it, not everybody is able to clear all content staight up the way the people in Method and Exorsus can

and not everyone should. its supposed to be the “hardest” tier, yet I as a casual player am able to (I really hope i dont jinx it) get my CE. (soon!! :D)

[Gráinne-earthen-ring]

@Bukachu-ravencrest

p.s how do I post links?

You wait three months for the timegated rep to kick in.

Or you skip the queue like Punyelf, by paying a terrible price.

But to make the poor-man’s-links as I did, you enclose your link with the “Preformatted text” button in at the top of the edit box, to the right of the “Blockquote” button.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

@Gráinne-earthen-ring

But to make the poor-man’s-links as I did, you enclose your link with the “Preformatted text” button in at the top of the edit box, to the right of the “Blockquote” button.

as much as I like first 2 options, they’re both out of reach for a common farmer like myself. therefor…
3…
2…
1…
Testing

www.BukachuIsSoLovely.com

[Unholyhomie-twisting-nether (Unholyhomie)]

“Titanforging is here to stay”

Well that sentence alone have made me decide that I will NEVER ever play retail wow again.

Because it seems like they are happy with all the changes to wow over the years (since mop)

and to me all the changes made to this game since then have been awful … cant even put it into words how much i dislike them. To me Modern WoW is not even an MMO. This game is so dead and the only ones who cant see it is blizzards big army of fanboys

[Gráinne-earthen-ring]

@Unholyhomie-twisting-nether

“Titanforging is here to stay”

Well that sentence alone have made me decide that I will NEVER ever play retail wow again.

Don’t go overboard. That’s the opinion of one player, not formal Blizzard policy.

And even when it comes to Blizzard intentions, don’t forget how many times they change their minds.

[Xérfall-kazzak (Xérfall)]

@Gráinne-earthen-ring

If they allowed people to earn upgrades for their gear in a proportionate way, we’d all be much happier

Pretty much this.
I myself, am not opposed to upgrading gear as a concept, it’s just the implementation of TF that doesn’t seem right. Making upgrades capped, and earned, is a much better solution that both ends of the players’ spectrum can achieve, and will serve whatever reasons Blizzard might have for TF (outgearing bosses and such).

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Unholyhomie-twisting-nether

This game is so dead and the only ones who cant see it is blizzards big army of fanboys

And yet here you are on the forums posting, so you obviously have an active account. You always subscribe to things you hate?

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Xérfall-kazzak

Making upgrades capped, and earned, is a much better solution that both ends of the players’ spectrum can achieve

Not entirely.
For players like me who don’t raid or do m+, if the upgrading system was capped, we’d be done pretty fast. Being done = boring = unsub.

TF has to remain as it is and exist ALONGSIDE an upgrading system. That would be the perfect solution; those who don’t like TF can ignore it and just upgrade and those who like TF can just ignore the upgrade system for the most part (and maybe just use it to boost a certain slot that they’re just not getting an upgrade for).

[Gráinne-earthen-ring]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

TF has to remain as it is and exist ALONGSIDE an upgrading system.

I favour the upgrading concept, but I would accept that TF could work with it. If a piece could TF, but if it didn’t, you could upgrade it with all the things it could TF into, I would find that inferior, but acceptable.

And there is endless activiry that could be associated with upgrades: materials, special materials that drop in specific places, professions, sockets, rituals, specific patterns to learn, challenges to meet, and places to go to make the upgrade essences. Even for people who barely ever set a foot in dungeons at all (and I still think that’s up to 30% of the playerbase) that would provide far more satisfaction than yet another dreary run yielding nothing, or a cheap thrill that feels bad 2 minutes later. It would allow you to participate in building your character. (Well, its gear, anyway; I’ll spare you the rant.)

[Xtingen-alakir]

Tahra what are you actually doing ingame that requires TF gear then?
You want a chance for better gear without actually doing harder content?

[Tèsla-silvermoon (Tèsla)]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

@Unholyhomie-twisting-nether

This game is so dead and the only ones who cant see it is blizzards big army of fanboys

And yet here you are on the forums posting, so you obviously have an active account. You always subscribe to things you hate?

Oh you dont imagine ho many ppl do it. maybe he’s a lucky owner of the sinkin shipTM 6 months

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Xtingen-alakir

Tahra what are you actually doing ingame that requires TF gear then?
You want a chance for better gear without actually doing harder content?

I don’t require it no.
But one of the main things of an (mmo)rpg is advancing your character. Making it more powerful.

Even though I don’t do certain content, I still very much enjoy that aspect of an mmorpg, so yeah, I like getting upgrades. It’s fun. I play for fun.

[Shortbolts-aerie-peak (Shortbolts)]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

But one of the main things of an (mmo)rpg is advancing your character. Making it more powerful.

Even though I don’t do certain content, I still very much enjoy that aspect of an mmorpg, so yeah, I like getting upgrades. It’s fun. I play for fun.

Yes, so, becoming more powerful, it would mean doing harder content. Not repeating the same low end content and becoming more powerful. That is no longer an RPG game. You don’t start at level 1 in an RPG game and expect to get the best sword in the game, do you?

[Xtingen-alakir]

What it thought. I do agree you should have something to work against, techincally we already have through reputation, but becuse of TF they arent even consider an upgrade, same goes for most crafted gear.

TF and warfront makes up skip a few step in progress our char.

But I strongly disagree that you should have a chance to get most powerful gear without even bother doing the core prinsiable content required to get access to that gear, which is one of the core of mmorpg (well it was until wow went of the path).

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

Yes, so, becoming more powerful, it would mean doing harder content. Not repeating the same low end content and becoming more powerful. That is no longer an RPG game. You don’t start at level 1 in an RPG game and expect to get the best sword in the game, do you?

Endgame in an mmorpg is very different from being lvl 1 in an rpg, and I’m pretty sure you know that, but making hyperbole claims gets more attention does it not?

WoW has different ways to enjoy endgame. None of them are more important than the other, because at the end of the day WoW is a game. Meant to entertain its playerbase. People enjoy this game is many different ways.

The way you think of advancement is not the same as mine. Neither of us is wrong or right, just different. Thankfully WoW offers multiple ways to advance.

So what was your point again? You wanting to enforce your idea of advancement upon me? Yeah, no thanks.

[Shortbolts-aerie-peak (Shortbolts)]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Endgame in an mmorpg is very different from being lvl 1 in an rpg, and I’m pretty sure you know that, but making hyperbole claims gets more attention does it not?

And difficulty in end game is completely different. An LFR raid is different to an Heroic raid. And yet, you seem entitled to think you should be the same ilvl as them/

@Tahra-earthen-ring

WoW has different ways to enjoy endgame. None of them are more important than the other, because at the end of the day WoW is a game. Meant to entertain its playerbase. People enjoy this game is many different ways.

Yes, they do. But, this is hypocritical of you, since you’ve recently told me to “quit the game, no one should play it like that”. So, because I don’t play it how YOU do, I should quit? Hate hypocrites.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

The way you think of advancement is not the same as mine. Neither of us is wrong or right, just different. Thankfully WoW offers multiple ways to advance.

The way entitled people think of advancement is different to mine. A normal person would think of advancement as “doing harder content to get better gear to advance in the game”. That’s the whole point of advancement.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

So what was your point again? You wanting to enforce your idea of advancement upon me? Yeah, no thanks.

My point is people like you are ruining this game because of your entitlement. Newsflash, you’re not entitled to be the same ilvl as me unless you have done the same content as me. You clearly have not, 3 Normal bosses and 1 Mythic dungeon compared to AoTC and multiple +7’s are 2 completely different leagues of this game.

Do you also play on League of legends and demand that you get a challenger border, even though you’re a bronze player?
Do you start on Black Ops games and demand that you should be max prestige?
Do you complete a game and then demand to have all the trophies for that game?

You just feel you’re entitled to WAY more than you are, and it’s ruining the game for so many people. But, you don’t care, because all you care about is yourself.

Did you only just join in Legion? Or were you a player before? Because NONE of this gearing bullroar was in the game until Legion. How did you enjoy it BEFORE it was apart of the game? Legion didn’t give welfare gear out. You knew the difference between an LFR raider and an Heroic raider. Did you not enjoy Legion?

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

And difficulty in end game is completely different. An LFR raid is different to an Heroic raid. And yet, you seem entitled to think you should be the same ilvl as them/

I am not.
I am only ‘entitled’ if you want to call it that, in the way that I want to keep advancing my character by doing the content I enjoy. If you think that’s being entitled… fine. I don’t care.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

Yes, they do. But, this is hypocritical of you, since you’ve recently told me to “quit the game, no one should play it like that”. So, because I don’t play it how YOU do, I should quit? Hate hypocrites.

Dude… Seriously… stop it. I made it very clear why I think it would be better for players with a mindset like you to just quit yes. Has nothing to do with me wanting you to play the game like I do.
It has to do with the FACT that your way of enjoying the game is harmful. Harmful to yourself and harmful to others. You are creating problems for yourself by playing the way you are and then complaining about these problems in a public forum, thus forcing this problem onto others.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

A normal person would think of advancement as “doing harder content to get better gear to advance in the game”. That’s the whole point of advancement.

This is just offensive. Advancement can mean many things and you don’t get to tell people who enjoy their advancement differently from your that they’re not normal. You are reported.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

My point is people like you are ruining this game because of your entitlement.

More offensive flaming. More reporting.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

Do you also play on League of legends and demand that you get a challenger border, even though you’re a bronze player?

Different game, different rules.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

Do you start on Black Ops games and demand that you should be max prestige?

I don’t play shooters.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

Do you complete a game and then demand to have all the trophies for that game?

Different games work differently. You can’t apply one way of playing a game to every single game out there, that’s just crazy.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

Did you only just join in Legion? Or were you a player before?

I was a progression raider back in Vanilla. Stopped raiding in TBC.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

How did you enjoy it BEFORE it was apart of the game?

Overal, when I didn’t raid yes content was limited and I got bored and quit.
Guess what, Blizzard doesn’t want that.

@Shortbolts-aerie-peak

Legion didn’t give welfare gear out. You knew the difference between an LFR raider and an Heroic raider. Did you not enjoy Legion?

I enjoyed Legion a lot. There was always something to do and advance my character. From grinding AP and upgrading my artifact weapon, finding Legendaries to getting WFs and TF’s. There was plenty to do.