How does it make it more advanced? Just because there is a random higher ceiling? Because that is not how “advancement” works at all. If I give a random bossfight 100 times more hp and make it take 100 hours longer it technically becomes harder in terms of successrate cause some people will mess up in those 100 hours, but it does not add any substance.
What does Titanforging add:
-the chance of more upgrades in content on farm
-complete reliance on ilvl over secondary stats which for example in case of haste means more dps while removing fluency in gameplay. (Will count this as a pro since there is people who strictly care about numbers even if their class hits one button every 10 seconds and does nothing else)
-according to Blizzard it removes a roadblock that noone has ever encounterd.
What is problematic:
-BiS and the gratifying feeling of getting an item that is Best in slot are gone
-any competitiveness when it comes to parses is lost (which was what originally made farm fun, the ability to compare yourself to people who had achieved a similar firepower, given now someone at the same Ilvl as I do can just demolish me or be way weaker and I have 0 clue if they actually are better or just got lucky)
-People get gear that is way over the content level they are doing, which in itself is not a problem, but then these people suddenly are in a position where the content they have to do to expect upgrades without random dicerolls is way out of their league.
The last point is hilarious, because it turns the Blizzard argument of “The roadblock that can only be overcome with overgearing” into a selffulfilling prophecy. Now indeed the people exist who have no clue what to do and how to solve a boss they are stuck on other than throwing higher ilvl at it and maybe outgearing it.
It advanced absolutely nothing, it shifted things around by adding a few things, which were either needed or completely unnecessary depending on who you ask, and took away stuff as the price.
And we all know that’s BS. It’s BfA, not vanilla WoW. Ilvl has no real weight other than if it’s especially low, if you don’t bring the gameplay and the strats then ilvl won’t save you in this.
The idea that some +5 upgrades distributed between a few people in the raid will make or break a bosskill is hilarious.
We all know why it’s in, for the quick slot machine kick and it’s addictive properties.
I would use the word effort personally, but I get your point(skill is obviously also involved in this). A lot of great players aren’t playing the high end content for various reasons.
Personally I wish to see more solo challenges like the mage tower with unique rewards, to give room for those who don’t have time or energy to be on a mythic team.
You get a larger variation of stats to work around, instead of a premade BiS list which used to be the case(well, in theory the set BiS list is still there, but it’s no longer realistic). Not saying the simming culture is necessarily any better, but at least you can go above anyone who don’t sim.
You had a set BiS list… now you have to take forging into account, meaning it isn’t realistic to take BiS into account, 'cause with forging in mind you won’t achieve it.
idk I find equiping random secondary stats over the ones I actually want and need just cause the primary stat is higher incredibly unsatisfying. There is nothing to work around, nothing to figure out.
Going above someone who does not sim is just the same as someone who equipped random stuff before. That was something that always existed, if anything titanforging and ultimately secondary stats mattering less made that harder than before (which i am pretty sure was the intention for the change in the first place.)
Titanforging removed two of the most Satisfying things in wow for me which were:
Working towards and item and finally getting it. Now if an item drops that is technically realyl good and it does not titanforge I just know I will replace it if some random crap titanforges to a point where it is better, the entire satisfaction of working towards something has been taken away.
Comparing my results to other people. It was fun to see, even within my own guild, who was doing better and worse than me, I could maybe give pointers to those who were doing less good while I could learn from those who were doing better.
And how many people, relatively speaking, had BiS in every slot? Maybe 1% of the total player base? For the majority of people you had to carefully balance all your stats from scratch. I remember when I was raiding in Cata on my priest I had to make sure I was hit capped at all times, then I had to get my haste levels right to make my rotation as smooth as possible while also keeping enough crit to have an impact.
Let’s not forget that back then you had reforging to do, enchants on every piece of gear and gem sockets on multiple pieces of gear all the time. Oh and don’t forget that you had to balance your stats based on what classes and races were in your group, and what talents you were using.
BFA gearing doesn’t even come close to what it used to be like.
you are right and going back to those times would be a bad moove, yet we dont have hit caps anymore and having a bis list actually had you set a goal and this is what matters for people. you set the goal and it was meaningful, because it was the end. with the current system there is no end, you can always get a better one and this is what burns out people the most imo
You can set goals for yourself now aswell, i don’t know why some people are stuck with this mentality that the objective of this game is to get some specific gear.
To me this sounds a lot like Diablo, which the same people claim to hate.
Also there was no end, because new content kept coming in, the only time you were realistically able to achiev this was in content droughts like Dragon Soul.
Honestly, WF and TF is one of the reasons I’ve stopped raiding. I felt like if I wasn’t running M+ for forges, then I must be letting the raid down. But I’m not a teenager. I wasn’t a teenager in vanilla. I can’t deal with an obligation to use every spare hour to run M+ in the hopes of a forge that, by my numbers, has a less than 1% chance of happening. M+ isn’t actually fun, so it needs to reward me regularly, or not need doing at all.
If it had been capped at, say, 5-10 ilevels under the current raid content, I’d not have felt bad about not doing M+, and I’d happily have bought an extra token per month to fund my raid consumables.
But that’s what happens when you design for retention not gameplay
Oh we don’t mind there is what we call now war- or titanforging. We want a cap, current difference is now 15 ILs per difficulty (up from 13 back in Cata) so we want titanforging capped at +15 or +10. Having so much rng isn’t enjoyable nor fullfilling. We reached that conclusion over a year ago but somehow people restart that discussion endlessy. What we want:
-Sockets of the rng and back to native, also to help JC
-Titanforging capped at +10 or +15 (current raid difficulty/tier difference).
Edit: And now removing tier and having random sockets, azerite traits or ILs for gear (the forging) didn’t make gearing easier. You gotta sim everything now before equipping.
And that’s a great tragedy. I don’t know how long you’ve been around, but there are items in this game that I can still remember owning and seeing. Items which have stories and a certain uniqueness to them.
If there’s one thing I expected from a Legion expansion, it was to loot the rarest and most evil treasures of the Burning Legion. I never got that. Instead, I got 600 simultaneous Ashbringers and forgettable Legion loot.
If there’s one thing that should unite WoW players it should be the connection to and love of the world that we share. Blizzard is deemphasizing this in the pursuit of making the game overly open-ended and giving us a litany of loot we don’t want or care about, and as a result of this, they have to implement Titanforging.
This does not, at all, constitute a reasoned opinion. It’s just an “I love it” with no reason given.
Did normal Uldir last saturday and got 390 bracers (that’s +5 ilvls better than baseline mythic for basically no effort at all). I feel like a system like that is just poisoning the playerbase, it makes gear feel worthless. I’m not excited for more than 30 seconds if I get a 395 socket piece (although that’s never happened).
Gear used to mean something in the past and you actually used to be able to put effort into getting each piece. And once you got your BiS for a certain slot it felt rewarding. Nowadays pursuing that is pointless since it’s 100% RNG whether or not you roll on an item well enough. I can’t feel passionate about gearing knowing that my own efforts will equal to nothing if I’m on a bad luck streak. It also means that you can just be lazy and hope you get lucky with your weekly box and not do anything else.
I said I don’t connect loot to the lore unless it actually has a connection to it. Some items do, but most items are seemingly random just because they have to be there.
I have been around as a player since July 2006, but as an audience since april 2005(first account in our home wasn’t mine, so I just watched)
Then you aren’t paying attention. I’ve given reasons, in this thread and in others. If you don’t want to listen to it, that’s your problem.
Is that an attempt to make an argument from authority and experience? Cause you’re not going to win on that, even if it was a valid argument.
God I’m old…
Items back in the day made their own lore. When one hears of Feralheart Raiment, one instantly knows what that is - at least roughly how good it is and what the player went through to get it. It writes its own story, and many of these items also had a connection to existing lore, although Feralheart Raiment wasn’t one of those.
If you hear about a BfA or Legion item, the first question you ask is “what level is it? Did it titanforge? Does it have a socket?” etc. You essentially know NOTHING about the effort the player went through to get the item nor how powerful it is from the name alone, because the fact is that that one item exists in varieties spanning over 150 item levels in some cases. The item, as an item, is meaningless.
I previously quoted all of your post and said you were the first one I’d seen. I then quoted him quoting you saying you like it, without quoting the reason, and he himself also did not give a reason, hence that, specifically, does not constitute a reason.
Your reasoning wasn’t that great either, but that’s the other topic of discussion we’re having.
It’s ironic that you should accuse me of not paying attention while writing a reply that proves you didn’t pay attention yourself.
At least there are survivors. Legion doesn’t have any. There is not a single item in BfA I felt any connection to whatsoever by name. I felt some connection to my item level, but that’s very, very hollow by comparison from an immersion or RPG point of view.
![:grinning:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/grinning.png?v=6" ":grinning:")
![:frowning:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/frowning.png?v=6" ":frowning:")
