You were the one making a point out of it, so don’t even try to push that on to me;
The only reason you don’t think my reasons aren’t any good, is because you don’t like my reasons. I could turn that around and say “I don’t like yours, so it isn’t valid.”, but I don’t.
Adding a couple of quotes from another thread about the same subject some weeks ago, to perhaps make it more clear than it has been in this thread;
Posted by Hinamori; (I share her/his opinion) "I prefer the idea of titanforging, because it doesnt stop the game being rewarding, and there is always a reason to play my main, atleast in couple content.
If there was no forging, i would hunt on bis pieces from a raid or dungeon, then im done with it, and nothing else to do. I also found it more infuriating that i actually had to hunt on bis gear. Then it just didnt drop for 2 months.
Now i can get good trinkets from multiple sources aswell as good weapons and other pieces. I dont bother with the word BiS. I dont mind what i have on is maybe not perfect stats. It went higher ilvl, it is better than that trinket from heroic.
If you are farming just for titanforging chance though, i think you are just doing it wrong. Play the game. Your character can always improve because of forging. Do what would you do otherwise, heroic raid or mythic. Weekly mythic+. If you get good loot be it. Otherwise that 1% here or there wont make any difference anyway.
Still can play alts whenever you want. And you can play with your main without feeling like its useless, because you cant get anything good. Lets just take 2 months break before next raid.
Well thats my opinion about titanforging. I still remember i geared up 2 characters in WoD then i left them for new and new alts because i couldnt progress them any further."
Posted by me; "Hina said it pretty darn well.
There are also other factors that makes titanforging quite valuable, like guild recruitment. I was a dedicated raider back in vanilla, TBC and early WotLK. I’ve been in server spesific top guilds, and even a world top 200 guild, and one of the biggest problems we had with recruitment was always lack of recruits with good enough gear. Basicly, if you took in lesser progressed players, you would have to gear them up, and at times that would mean killing bosses that nobody else would benefit from. These days the entire playerbase is kept at a rather close average itemevel because of changes made to how gearing works, and this gives a lot more room for access to decent players from the entire playerbase. + You running “outdated” content to “gear up people” is something anyone in the group can benefit from. Titanforging is a part of this system, believe it or not".
That’s your opinion, i’m sure warriors will remember Draught of Souls for example, everyone knows the Arcanocrystal and there are other noteworthy items out there many people will remember.
However i’d like to remind people that this argument is completely pointless, i’ve seen it before and it still gets copy/pasted for no reason.
I can partly understand his reason. Wiping on a boss endlessly because you’re just a casual guild and couldn’t improve through equipment anymore felt bad. You either beat the boss after countless wipes in a lucky try, or there was a raid nerf, so you could beat it.
But when I look through my guild’s progress during Legion I would say that we aren’t as good as we once were. We often killed bosses when we were overequipped, and when not we really struggled with them.
It’s less working towards killing a boss through skill, and more waiting for getting better equipment to kill him. And then it also feels less rewarding when we managed to kill him because we have overall 5-10 ilvl more than 2-3 trys earlier.
Also we face problems like raider_io (can’t post the name with a .) because ilvl says nothing about your skill anymore, people feel less motivated to do harder content (why go mythic raiding when you already have 380+ through TF), and people skip easier content because their equip is too high for it to be rewarding.
Last tuesday I reached lvl 120 with my priest. I run 4 dungeons from +2 to +5 and then +9 because I couldn’t need anything from lower dungeons. And why should I run a +6 or +7 dungeon when I already have to hope for a TF item for an improvement?
I was asking whether you could relate due to experience, but I wasn’t saying that I thought you were clueless due to lack of experience. Instead of saying “Yeah I started in 2006 so I remember” you turned it around to impune me on how long I had been playing. I was asking curiously, you asked aggressively, and therein lies the difference.
Well, I didn’t do that either. I didn’t say your reason was invalid, I said it was a bad reason. That’s obviously my opinion. Nevertheless, I do consider it bad, and I have explained to you why I think this.
Yes, I can see some of the conveniences, but when you’re making a big open world game that’s supposed to dig at those deep social emotions and make your care about a world space, convenience is not necessarily your friend. I believe I have argued this case, but I shall continue, since you have now quoted Hinamori, which I will respond to.
So, here’s the deal with that. Your BiS gear, right now, is literally NEVER EVER going to drop. We didn’t just swing it slightly towards there being a smaller chance, we swung it all the way to North pole. If you get 1 perfectly dropped best item in the history of you playing this game, you’ll be lucky. That iLvL 400 socketed mythic titanforged with tertiary and your best secondaries on it? Forget it. It’s not going to happen.
I do agree that being done with gearing in 2 months is too quick. It should take longer than that.
There’s another, separate issue, which is that if you don’t get the gear within a reasonable timeframe, you’ll never get it. This is actually because Blizzard repeatedly invalidates raid tiers, instead of building raid tiers after each other. Progression through content has been replaced with 4 difficulty levels of the same content, and there won’t be any reason to run the previous tier now that set bonuses have been removed and the replacement Azerite trait system is directly tied to the dungeon itself.
Thus, once the new tier is released, the previous one is invalid, and you shouldn’t run it. The item that you wanted that drops from there is no longer worth your time. Progression is dead.
Why are you celebrating the fact that you had no control over how to build your character in an RPG game? Why do you celebrate the fact that complex and interesting character building has been reduced to “get the bigger iLvL”? I simply don’t understand this. I can’t think of anything more boring than chasing iLvL’s even if I try.
Again, we’re celebrating the loss of player agency and choices and control and progression, or just dismissing its importance. If I’m not thinking about progressing my character, and just “letting it happen”, then why the hell am I playing an RPG?!
The answer is that I’m not. WoW is no longer an RPG, and this is why the community has split into two communities. One that wants an MMORPG, and they want classic, and one that wants an action game, and they want this. Sometimes you’re lucky and you like both genres, but I’m telling you - A LOT of people have quit this game because the genre changed.
Well, you could play your main before and get progress, unless you cleared everything and got your BiS list in 2 months, which you won’t unless you’re literally Method.
Well, WoD basically took the tBC model and forgot to add progressively harder dungeons and raids. It was a colossaal failure, but this was because Blizzard had structured the game so that it was flat without having scaling. That doesn’t work. It’s like if WoW had released with a level cap of 40 and the hardest mob in the game was 30 unless you wanted to raid, and so to get to 40 you literally had to raid. Literal raid or die. That’s WoD. WoD also focused on garrisons and thus lost a raid tier - the one thing that kept WoD going. That’s why WoD sucked. It’s quite simple, really.
Titanforging and scaling does “solve” this in a very technical sense, but solving it this way throws away what made WoW great in the first place, and that’s exactly what has happened.
Yeah, one of the challenges of running the hardest content is finding competent, geared players. This has not changed. Yeah, you can get people to 370 or so very quickly, but if you want them in mythic raids, you want them at 380+ or so, and that’s really hard to do, and you can’t even help them target the best pieces so they could join at 375 or whatever with good stats.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Because of the rapid progression and 4 different difficulty levels, we have more scaling than we’ve ever had. When you ding 120, you’ll deal around 6k DPS. In full Ulduar Mythic gear, you’ll deal around 18-20k DPS. This is a 3-fold increase, roughly equivalent to the scaling from Molten Core to Sunwell Plateau, and this is just the first tier.
And yet, for all of this scaling, you don’t actually feel any progression, because the game just scales the entire world, scales other players to your level, scales dungeons, scales the raids, and gives you no control over your progression, so you’re not even paying attention to it.
As a result, we have more progression than ever, but it feels like we have none at all, and this BS with Titanforging and weekly chests is the heart and soul of this problem.
This is all nothing but your opinion, and my opinion being different to yours, doesn’t mean it is bad. It means it’s just different.
I’m a huge fan of this world and it’s lore. Yet I don’t mind the current loot system, and yet you, by this description, pretty much tell me that I am disconnected to the RP part of this game.
Thanks for the long description of how you feel. That’s perfectly fine, but do not think that people who don’t share your opinion lack involvement in this game. You have absolutely no idea why people quit the game even, so don’t try to make it sound like the majority quit because of the opinion you have and describe here. You might have friends who say they quit because of it, but the world doesn’t evolve around you and your friends(not me and mine either btw), and when people quit it is often a mixture of reasons why too.
I have had a few rounds of rage quits too… because things didn’t turn out the way I wanted them to. The overhaul of the raid system, that came with WotLK, was the first time I rage quit, and back then I quit for similar reasons you describe here. I lost all sense of character progression because of the raid tiers no longer working like the vanilla and TBC scheme. After some years I changed my mindset and ended up where I am today, totally calm about loot and raid “modes”. It’s quite nice being here, makes the focus on the actual world much better. Not saying my way would work for you, but I found a way to settle and appreciate.
And that is the main problem with TF. You’re trading accomplishment for excitement.
The thing is excitement doesn’t last, it’s only momentarily, then you’ll get back to the same feelings you had before you were excited. Accomplishment on the other hand does last (until the next tier that is), but feeling accomplished -for many- triumphs excitement any day.
In fact, getting the BiS item will also get you excited, perhaps not to the same degree as TF, but it will give you that feeling, and the feeling of accomplishment too. So, even if you look at it mathematically, it’s better to remove it. Having TF actually took away one thing in exchange for more of another, while you actually didn’t lack excitement in the first place.
Not quite. I’m not saying anything about whether you are or are not connected to the lore of the game, I am saying that, to the extent that you are, you connected to it independantly of the gameplay. You may be connected to it through cutscenes and Nobbel87 videos and all that jazz, and believe me so am I, but when you’re delving into that dungeon and getting that specific piece of loot, you’re not thinking for a second about what’s actually happening, story-wise. If you try to make it make sense, it’ll drive you insane.
There comes a point where the sheer amount of people saying the same thing makes you feel like it’s no coincidence. If I can ask literally hundreds of people on my own, if you can have literally a huge number of YouTube content creators saying the same thing, from Bellular to Asmongold to Sodapoppin etc. etc., and get millions and millions of upvotes for saying it. If you can have a single video about it get 4 million plus views saying essentially the same thing, then it’s obviously not just me.
It’s not everyone. I never claimed it was. I claimed everyone I had met up until that point agreed with me. You are the first one I’ve met that disagrees and provides reasoning, but I still think it’s a bad reason.
If I hadn’t reached that point I would find myself unable to play the game at all. I’d go insane. However, us having come to accept it as being just “oh well, not that big of a deal” is just us coming to terms with WoW no longer being an MMORPG. If we ignore our personal cases of stockholm syndrome, it’s still worst for people who like MMORPG’s, and that’s a problem when WoW markets itself as an MMORPG.
Might asweel through in the disapointment too. with this TF I mostly get disapointed because on that rare occasion I get that TF proc it on a “bad” item and the change for getting Tf on that BIS item diminissed by millions. Same when you get “bis” and it doesnt proc at all
Now you are talking about your own point of view. Gear has absolutely no relation to accomplishment to me. Accomplishment is to me when I defeat content I have a desire to defeat.
Oke I was silent long enough but TBH kinda tired of people not respecting our side, the side that hates forging or wants it capped. I don’t feel any accomplishment anymore, anything can proc and anybody can get the same or higher gear despite being way lower on the raiding ladder. Sorry to say no matter how small the chance somebody from LFR should be able to get 385+ let alone a 355. What’s the point of going into normal? For mogs? I loved raiding (and still do) for mutple reasons and one of those is now gone, but that was to get BiS. When we only had TF or WF (+6) in MoP I didn’t care, right now the situation is just stupid. You want that leech + socket + max TF because as a dps that’s your BiS. And no I didn’t stop playing when I got BiS Pre-ToT either. I raided with 2-3 chars a week till I got bis for their difficulty, the entire guild did alt night that way. Our goal was all our alts in full normal DS gear, somebody is done? They could switch. This bloody nonsense that if forging didn’t exist people wouldn’t play is, sorry to say beyond stupid.
Current way titanforging it destroys the experience because of it gives you items from the next difficulty, which you don’t deserve. beat the content, reap the rewards. Not Reap the rewards and skip the content because all you got left is mogs…
That’s correct to some extent. When I defeat the content I feel accomplished for sure, but then what completes that is the reward I get for defeating it.
I want to defeat a content to get a specific reward. Now that specific reward is no longer “specific”. So I will have to repeatedly go back to the same content and I still might not get that specific reward.
Being un-rewarded is never an (complete) accomplishment.
That is my own point of view for sure, but I found lots of people that adopt it as well. And a large percentage of us wouldn’t mind keeping TF but capping it at a level below the higher content, so you can do the content you want, you get the reward you’re after, and you get your moments of excitement, without exaggeration. If you’re a normal raider, getting a 365 lucky item is very good and more than enough for the content you’re doing, getting 390 though? That’s really a stretch.
Edit: I might add too that in fact, capping TF is actually better for the game! It makes people want to do higher difficulty content more. Unlike how some people say that removing TF will make people stop playing the content, it’s the opposite. If you only have TF lower than the higher content, you will (eventually) want to do it when your current content is on farm and you outgear it. But when you already have a few pieces from higher content, there is never an incentive for you to play higher difficulties any more. Some might even get bored and stop playing that content altogether until the next patch.
If that’s true then you might as well get rid of Titanforging entirely, and it would achieve the same result. You know the funny thing about all this is that most of the people who are advocating for titanforging don’t give a valid reason why it is good, aside from “I like it, so it’s fine”. I have yet to see a convincing argument for why Titanforging should even exist in this game.
I’m really sorry. We can throw any reason in the world at you and you still won’t find it valid. I’m sorry you aren’t able to grasp the fact that people are different, and your vaildation isn’t viable. It’s your opinion, and if you hate it so much nothing will ever make you change your mind about it.
The reasons are perfectly valid, you just don’t like them and choose to view them as invalid.
Go on then, throw me some reasons and I will consider them and then more than likely debunk them. Here, I’ll even start you off with a couple:
Blizzard’s reason that players are getting stuck on bosses despite having the best gear available. I’ve talked about this previously but I’ll repeat myself. Have you ever met a guild that had every single piece of gear they could get and yet couldn’t complete the current raid content? If you have, please let me know, I’d love to speak to them. It would be like meeting Bigfoot!
It makes recruiting new players into guilds easier since everyone is nearer the same ilvl. This hasn’t been a problem since Wrath so I’m not sure why it’s even being brought up. Any idiot can get 350ilvl without ever stepping foot into a raid, and that is certainly high enough to clear Heroic Uldir. The days of requiring specific tier set bonuses and attunements to do raid content are long gone.
Are there any other reasons you can think of why Titanforging is needed in this game? Because I can think of a few reasons why it shouldn’t exist:
It completely ruins the competitive side of raid dps.
It makes it nearly impossible to tell the good players from the bad players.
It devalues higher end content and the players who complete that content.
It encourages players to repeatedly clear content that is far below their gear and skill level just to get a chance at titanforging (this comes with a myriad of issues that I won’t go into here).
It goes against pretty much everything an RPG stands for.
It contributes to the “skinner box” that the game is now focused around, conditioning players to keep playing even when they have had enough.
But of course, none of that matters because “I like it, so it’s fine”…
My alts (inlcuding this one currently, it changes per raid or expansion who or who not raids) where I did invest time in are all near or well above 350 line, heck even the horde one for which I don’t care about is 347 (except for Horde only toys, mounts etc.): https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/runetotem/aimster.
Edit: this means bag IL, I’m wearing the 300 rings on purpose.
Tahra here. Can’t reply on my main, so the monk it is.
Titanforging is fine. People should just accept it, ignore it and be happy when they get a nice proc. Otherwise, don’t worry about it.
Alright, let’s hear it.
It completely doesn’t do that at all.
So what?! How does that even matter?
but
It doesn’t even do that. The frequency has been nerfed so much that you will not see people with loads of TF pieces, certainly not really big ones. Mostly probably 10-15 ilvl procs.
No it doesn’t. You still get the best gear from that content. Some random person having 1 nice item doesn’t break anything.
No it doesn’t. That’s their own self-inflicted problem.
Blizzard doesn’t want you to grind for TF. So don’t. Because it’s not needed. ‘Problem’ solved.
No it doesn’t? Explain how you think it does that?
It’s RNG. RNG is pretty baseline for EVERY RPG.
You are never FORCED to keep playing. It’s your choice. I myself LIKE it when I have a reason to keep playing. There’s a variety of reasons though why I’m not having that feeling at the moment, and TF being nerfed and not present of half of my gear is pretty big part of why I’m not enjoying the game atm:
I can’t get a azerite gear upgrade anymore. So that part is done. - Bored.
I can’t really get a higher weapon ilvl. So that part is done. - Bored.
So there are some random parts, but like I said… I don’t grind for TF. It’s a nice bonus. A cool surprise. I don’t do content I hate just for gear. That’s not how I’m wired.
![:disappointed_relieved:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/disappointed_relieved.png?v=6" ":disappointed_relieved:")