The problem is people can’t ignore it. Without TF you always sought the pieces that contain the secondary stats that benefit your class/spec the most.
Now, this can’t be done. You may have a piece that has the best secondary stats for you, but then suddenly you get a TF piece in its place, but with stats you don’t care about. But it’s higher ilvl, higher primary stats, and you feel obliged to use it, even if its secondary stats are not optimal for you.
You should never feel obliged to wear any piece of gear or otherwise you won’t be competitive enough. This is bad design.
Ilvl is worthless now as a metric. Thank goodness for logs and raid experience.
I agree with all of your post pretty much.
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Nonsense. The item is either better or it isn’t.
That’s not any different from getting an upgrade. If the secondary stats aren’t your optimal ones, but the item is still an upgrade, then IT’S AN UPGRADE. That has nothing to do with TF.
People keep blaming TF for all kinds of things which it has nothing to do with. It’s honestly getting too silly.
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First of all you’re not obliged to use an item just cause it’s higher level and secondly, for the Nth time, as usual, this has nothing to do with titanforge.
The scenario which you described can happen and has happened a lot even before titanforging existed. You go in a normal raid, get an item with BiS stats, then on heroic you get another item on the same slots with worse secondary stats but +15 ilvl.
This has always been the design, yet now it’s bad cause it can also happen from titanforging. Seriously i asked this before, i know people have an irrational desire to blame titanforging for everything but think 2 seconds before posting.
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During Uldir, even logs arent that good of a way to tell who’s good and who’s not. unless you’re really good at reading logs
- I have thrown you reasons
- You can’t debunk my personal opinion about titanforging. It’s completely impossible.
Yes, you have serious issues with titanforging. I get that. I am not trying to tell you your feelings about it aren’t real, unlike you and certain others in this thread, are doing towards me. I have zero issues with it however, and feel sorry for those of you who aren’t able to take it as a bonus instead of a curse.
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Of course I know it could happen between higher difficulty content. But that had a limit, you had to equip that piece but you knew you’d eventually get your BiS one at the same level and you’d equip it. Now this is not always the case. You could migrate to a higher difficulty, get a piece, it forges, so you wear it even when your BiS one drops if it doesn’t forge.
I for one don’t want TF to go completely, but it’d be better if it’s capped at say +10 so it’s still an upgrade, but also lesser than the higher difficulty content.
And here is the problem. I’m not asking you why you like the system, I’m asking you why the system is beneficial to the game. Those are 2 entirely different things. For example, I really like being able to fly around, but I also know that the disadvantages of flying far outweigh the advantages of it.
Titanforging has a similar problem. A lot of people like it (why wouldn’t you when it gives you a chance at better items) but I don’t believe it is good for the game.
So I’ll ask you once more, why is Titanforging beneficial to the game?
If you can’t even be bothered to read what I’ve said, then there is no hope for you at all. You are going by the logic that a large majority of the people playing this game think like you, while in reality people follow very different playstyles and interests, and my reasoning for titanforging being a good thing for this game, is as valid as yours. Together we cover a couple of types, and it’s great that you are voicing your opinion about it(it helps shape the game), just don’t dimiss others just because you don’t like theirs.
Forgive me if I missed it but the only reason you have given for having titanforging in this thread is because it makes recruiting new players to guilds easier. I have given my reasons multiple times as to why this isn’t true, as have other people in this thread.
Do you have another reason why you think titanforging is beneficial to the game, or is that it? If you don’t then perhaps you’d like to try debunking some of the reasons I gave for getting rid of titanforging.
This has nothing to do with feelings or opinions, it’s about what is best for the game.
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And I’ve given my explanations why your stated reasons for TF being bad are incorrect or inconsequential. Yet you don’t acknowledge that at all.
That’s because your “explanations” mostly consist of just saying “I’m right, you’re wrong”…
So, you haven’t read my posts(that includes the Hinamori quote). If you really want reasons, you should read what I’ve already posted, otherwise you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
What is good for the game for you, isn’t necessarily good for the game for others. You do not know that your opinion is “better for the game”, despite your belief. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but if I can find your reasoning shallow, there will be others out there who doesn’t have their experience ruined either. There will be shades of opinions and /care within this range even.
I have probably repeated this point one time too many, but I’m quite stunned by your brick wall. I can see your frustration though, but you can’t change my view. I have no problems understanding and “feeling your pain”, but I just don’t agree and just want you to stop attempting to make me change my mind about it. You can’t change my mind.
Good night though, and I am gonna attempt to leave it at this. I’ve said what I wanted, and we’re just sprouting repeated opinions at this point.
Oh? Do they?
Then I’m afraid you just don’t understand. Yes, not all of my replies have explanations, but guess why? Because yours didn’t have them in the first place.
Why should I have to prove my point when you don’t. That doesn’t seem like a fair way to discuss something.
Case in point:
It devalues higher end content and the players who complete that content.
No it doesn’t.
Same kind of argumentation. You haven’t added any explanation why you think it devalues it, so why should I provide any to counter your non-reason?
Your post is full of these kinds of examples.
And in other cases I DID provide an explanation why you’re wrong. But I guess you’re conveniently ignoring THOSE replies?
You’re lucky they deleted almost our entire history at this point, you admitted you only do a weekly LFR and that aslong you don’t have the highest IL you keep doing it. That isn’t a good reason, in all the threads you were destroyed by the rest and from all the pro people you had the weakest arguements. Heck in one you were contradicting your own posts made in others. TBH regarding you I don’t even need to ask you a question because all the answers will be: Mainstat and IL are king, everybody deserves the same IL gear and you should only raid higher difficulties for mog and prestige.
No cap TF to +10 or +15 and both camps are happy, you still have something to aim for while natural progression will still be allowed to happen and nobody will be forced to do lower difficulties for TF procs. Both camps happy, but even that back in the day you shot down for reasons unknown. It always came over like you were right and we were wrong to doubt your insight, despite all threads never favoring you. You never listened to us in the 1st place, like Amaelia says:
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So i roll a pair of dice and my iron axe can become a diamond axe?
No thanks, makes no sense.
Over 100 replies in this thread alone and you expect me to read them all in minute detail and remember everything that was written in them? Anyway I went back and found the post you were referring to and I sort of get what you and hinamori were talking about. It pretty much comes down to whether it is better for a game to have a definite stopping point, or if it’s better to always have something to strive for, a continuous cycle of gearing up over and over.
EDIT: Correct me if I’m wrong but it looks like your arguments for keeping Titanforging essentially boil down to 3 main points:
- Blizzard is right and players are stuck at bosses despite having all the best gear they can acquire.
- Guild recruitment is easier because the average player has a higher ilvl meaning you need to spend less time gearing them up to raid.
- Titanforging gives you a continuous reason to play, as any content you could potentially give you an upgrade.
I think I’ve talked enough about why your first 2 points make no sense at all, so I’ll focus on the third. Yes you are right that Titanforging gives you a source of continuous upgrades, but this isn’t really relevant to the game right now. Unless you are in the top 1% of the player base there is always something to strive for, and Titanforging doesn’t change that.
What you and a lot of other players are experiencing is the Skinner Box in action. We are conditioned by Blizzard to log onto the game every day to check the mission table and do world quests in the hopes of getting gear upgrades. These activities aren’t fun but we do them regardless, hoping for that sweet sweet Titanforge upgrade. Basically you are playing not because you enjoy it, but purely for the dopamine hit you get when RNG goes in your favour.
Ask yourself this: How many activities in WoW would you do if you had absolutely no chance of getting a gear upgrade from them? I’m willing to bet not too many, but you do those activities anyway. Why? Skinner Box and Dopamine hits. It’s the exact same way Casinos suck people in. Millions of people spend hours in casinos just pulling slot machines hoping to win that jackpot. Do they enjoy the act of putting a coin into a machine and pulling a lever? I doubt it. The only enjoyment they get from it is when they win, even if they end up losing more than they gain.
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You’re lucky they deleted almost our entire history at this point, you admitted you only do a weekly LFR and that aslong you don’t have the highest IL you keep doing it.
What?! That’s just blatant lies man. I NEVER said that.
And I hardly do LFR, I often do them only once for the story. Sometimes a bit more if there’s an item I want (and I’m not talking about the stats here, I’m talking about appearance). Stop spreading nonsense about me please? It’s slander.
in all the threads you were destroyed by the rest and from all the pro people you had the weakest arguements.
Look, you are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn’t make it true. You can think about me what you want, but don’t start spreading that nonsense as truth. I’ll be reporting you for flaming, slander and trolling.
TBH regarding you I don’t even need to ask you a question because all the answers will be: Mainstat and IL are king, everybody deserves the same IL gear and you should only raid higher difficulties for mog and prestige.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. You have no idea what I think obviously, so stop telling me what I think. ASK me what I think instead. You might be surprised. You just feel the need to flame and be abusive just because I have a different opinion.
Nobody is forced. Blizzard doesn’t WANT you to act like that. Because it’s not a healthy way of playing games. So just stop it? Be smart and just have fun. It’s so easy, but your kind of gamers insist on creating these self-inflicted problems.
And no, both camps would not be happy with +15. +20 or 25 would be okay. 15 is not enough to make a difference. Read Blizzards reasons why TF exists. If it’s lowered to 15 max, it STOPS WORKING. Read it. Understand it. Please.
Again more personal attacks. Stop it. Talk about the issues at hand. Not your personal vendetta with someone with a different opinion.
Read my previous post. I explained it there.
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I kill a guy in a robe and get a big plate armor.
No thanks, makes no sense.
It’s a game. Systems trump realism.
You might not need it in the sense of advancing to a more difficult tier, but advancing your character is a core feature of any RPG. It’s fun.
Why should people who don’t enjoy the same type of content as you do, not have the ability to keep advancing? They’ll never advance to the same exact level as you. But they can at least close the gap easier now than in the past. Imo that is a good thing (and thankfully Blizzard agrees).