Ah yes, because new player only arrive during spikes. A spike in what I don’t know, because to have a spike of new players you’d need a baseline number of them. Otherwise we’d be in an intake system.
Do you play this game? It’s been slowly dying for the last few years with the only exception being the summer Warcraft came out. Merged realms can’t hide that fact. Outside of endgame the world is empty of players.
Yeah. Do you?
I leveled recently, as you can see from my DA achievement. I often grouped up with people leveling, had a great experience with a team we formed in Netherstorm to crack some later quest-lines and joined a pleasant social guild. I enjoyed the 1-120 experience bar legion, which I’ve simply played too much recently, so I skipped most of it by doing a TW event.
Been playing a few mythics a night with my mates recently, we’re having lots of fun. So urm,
Doesn’t really hold up.
Yes it does. Game has less than half the subs it did last time Blizz released sub numbers. As a low level player every zone outside of the new 110-120 content is dead.
Citation needed. And half of ten million would still be 5 million, paying £10 a month is £50’000’000 from subs. Hardly a bad state of affairs. This doesn’t really relate to your main point and is a Red Herring.
Google WoW sub numbers then come back and tell me it’s 10 million LOL.
Blizz havent released sub numbers since 2015 when it was 5.5 million. Sub numbers got leaked at the end of 2018 and were at 1.7 million. Dying game is dying.
And it relates perfectly to my point that there are no new players or at least no significant number of new players.
Again, new players wont be able to tell the difference between a twinked and an alt leveller in PvP.
Leak didn’t include China, so is likely inaccurate if it was accurate at all. Still a red herring because a game with an active population of 1.7M is still mucher higher then most games considering DOTA 2 and PUBG only have around 700-900K active players. You’re not really proving there’s not new players.
Alt leveler or new player doesn’t make that much of a difference against a twink. Even with a fully heirloom’ed alt in the 50-59 bracket twinkly Rdruid in Cat Form Feral Affinity Master Shapeshifter could hit me for 75% of my health. I remember some fun leveling games in which we had one twink Rdruid the enemy team as well they were top 1 & 2 in both damage and healing. Fun.
The point is, new player or not, if you’re not a twink you just get obliterated when facing one, so you can’t tell the difference indeed but I don’t believe that means it’s a good thing to mix twins and levelers. There was a reason why twinks were separated from the rest before Legion.
The argument of “we do this for the new players” only concerns a small part of the overall population, and it therefore not so valid, but in truth this solution will help people level faster (since, you know, the first win gives a lot of exp, and the others are still good, and if you queue when the opposing faction has their twink army in queue then you don’t win until they go sleep), will help casuals who make alts enjoy their pvp leveling sessions between two dungeons, and really anyone who did bgs at lower levels will have a better time. The only people who complain are twinks. I can understand the increased queue time issue, but really what was the point of going into a bg where you know you can 1v5 anyone in the enemy team, global healers with only auto hits and enchant procs, and almost never fear the possibility of facing someone posing a threat? How is it not better to queue into people who match your character’s strength? If the twink community is as big as the noise made on forums then you should get games, if not then we can all agree that we had only a few twinks in lower level bgs and they totally unbalanced the games each and every time even though being very few. Either way not pairing them with other players seems fair for everyone. The queue time issue is unfortunate but I guess that’s what you get for bashing defenseless targets one season long, now back to pre Legion 
The Chinese, like Koreans and Americans are not on EU servers so what difference does that make, you have a playing pool of 1.7 million between EU and US when just 4 years ago the numbers were more than double that. If you can’t ascertain from those numbers that there are less players and therefore less new players then you won’t notice the difference when Blizz puts AI bots in future battlegrounds.
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Are we doing a bait and switch? You said
Just because there’s less player doesn’t mean there’s not a good proportion of new players. So what are you arguing exactly now?
Fair point.
Not really?? the queue times actually increased after they removed Twinks, so… there’s actually less people playing now.
Very much bracket dependant.
Pick the bracket with the worst balance between a Twink and a leveller and use it as an example, and pick the class with balance issues at low level.
Do you also think it’s good to mix a fresh 120 with a geared 120 or a casual with a R1 multi Glad in the same BG? that affects new players too who may have leveled a boosted character.
If there was no XP in BG’s ( you know like Classic ) would half the population still enter a BG - if the answer is no they aren’t there for the PvP they are there for XP. A twink’s motivation is PvP as they don’t gain XP and will always be at odds with someone looking for a shortcut to levelling.
It’s not an increased queue time - it’s an infinite queue time, unless you queue a specific BG and the opposite faction queues into the same BG.
Brackets above 29 don’t have a queue time - I have queued on this for 6 hours without ever getting a pop or a queue timer.
That is a complete fairy tale - might have happened in Classic / WotLK but not now. You might see a Twink steaming into a group but I’ll almost guarantee he’s being pocket healed. So what you see as a 1 v 5 isn’t
Can you tell me which enchants Global Healers ?
The only XP Off brackets getting pops are 19’s - IF they don’t go into the random queue, and possibly 20 - 29’s due to F2P.
Twinks in the higher brackets are a lot less in number, 39’s were never well represented, you would be hard pushed to meet a Twink in this bracket, and due to the nature of gearing a 39 the difference between a 'loomed leveler and a Twink is relatively small. I cba to link my 39 MW Monks yet again ( linked them in several topics ) so you check the difference, but it’s about 300 Health - 18 Spell Power.
People have difficulty telling a twink from a leveller in looms - they get wrecked and immediately assume it was a twink without ever considering they screwed up their positioning or failed to use a defensive CD.
Ironically I now see threads about people moaning about long queue times in low level brackets.
The other irony in the separation is that people who played 20 -29’s are making new level 20’s, gearing them with all the BiS Epic gear they can, and then unsubbing. This puts them back into the XP On queuing system on 'toons that will have more power than they had before …….
The separation is fine if you want to play 19’s, but they never had issues get competitive games as most nights there were 19 twink only Wargames running.
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I really wish you are correct and that there are a steady stream of new players, but the evidence does not support that view.
Less players are playing now than at anytime in WoWs history. Even with merged battlegroups and merged servers the queue times outside of endgame at peak times in the evening are long for battlegrounds. Less players in the xp-on pool and even less players in the xp-off pool.
Outside of PvP there is further segregation of the player pool in the world zones with the warmode function. I have been world questing on this toon for epic procs on quest rewards. As xp-off queues are bugged and fewer and fewer players log on to play their twinks its all in can really do on this toon. For the last 2 weeks I have switched between warmode on and warmode off and still I meet no players questing.
The only toons I seem to come across questing are level 20 vets. These guys aren’t paying subs and more and more players are turning to this playstyle. That is disconcerting to me because less subs means more chances of this game dying.
Unfortunately for 29s like myself f2ps and vets for some mad reason are still in the xp-on queue.
Not played 20 - 29 since WoD. Have several 20’s lined up incase I decide enough is enough and un-sub my 2 accounts.
Gearing them while subbed, nice and simple - roll an Allied race - fail to get the BiS piece - delete - repeat.
Funny Blizz fixes most of the broken items then separates …. logic
Xp-off,com is full of people now rerolling 20s and unsubbing. Queue times for xp-on in that bracket aren’t the 5 mins like it was before but around 10mins peak times. Every other low level bracket ive played has been 20mins+.
Bracket dependant indeed, can’t deny that, but from my personal experience this remains very true until 79-89 at the very least then it starts being a bit more fair. As you said yourself 50-59 is a joke, lower brackets have overturned discs, and a few strong dps classes who got their hard hitters a bit before the other classes.
I wasn’t aware this was the worst bracket nor the worst spec balance wise. It’s just an event that marked me everytime that I leveled a character through this bracket. Could’ve talked about Fwarriors or something else really.
The difference with 120 players is that they are all here to play endgame, which is why it is okay to max good players with not so good ones. The weak 120 WANTED to go for endgame pvp and improve his own character towards it. The good, well-equipped players have gotten their gear already, the other ones will catch up and are okay with it, they came here to play endgame content with the already battle hardened characters. This is not the same at lower levels. The levelers aren’t here to play as if 49 or 29 or 79 were the end game levels at which you optimize your character with rare loot, weekly locked, that needs carrying or whatever. If I skim through 40-49 with and alt, full heirlooms on and decent quest/dungeon/bg gear on me I’m average/good and I’ll never go higher because I’ll be over 49 before I have time to gather 49 twink gear and I’m still no match for a twink. It’s not that he has a slight advantage and player skill will decide the game, I just don’t stand a chance (I don’t want to boast or anything so don’t take it thzt way but I bought this game after playing pservers for years, did one season and got 2.6, I doubt all twinks are experienced to that point and still its a no match half the time with them wasting stuff like crazy) . The 49 twinks are playing an endgame version of what I am playing, with gear that I can’t fully obtain unless I stop my exp bar too or lose days for a level range that is relatively fast, they used golds on enchants and toys (those stupid rocket thingies for instance) and pots because they know they don’t waste such consumables since their character won’t be progressing again anytime soon, so again I can’t do the same without being hit by consequences. Basically they are playing a version of the game superior to mine which puts me at a very obvious disadvantage. I don’t think even twink lovers can deny that they have major combat advantage over the non twink version of their spec. And then there’s the level, at 120 people are 120. At 40-49 people are BROUGHT TO 49. They aren’t 49. I am aware that even without twins there will be 49 players but let’s say you’re SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 40 and 49 and enter a bg, people wil’ be SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 40 and 49. Twins are 49. They are guaranteed to have the additional talent. They are guaranteed to have unlocked all spells for this bracket. They are guaranteed to being to equip the best in slots which might just be 49 so even if I went and got it I still can’t fight back 9/10 of the time (10 levels per bracket, assuming bis is on last level that’s an example ofc). They are guaranteed to surpass other players who just level even with the same gear because enchants and stuff. The difference then would be minor but it would be there and in the facts no leveler has the same gear as a twink, not even close unless maybe the heirloom pieces that are bis for the tier (and they aren’t many, even on a leveling character I occasionally stumble on a better piece, and I expect fully made twinks to have them all) there wouldn’t be an issue in power and twinks would never have been separated before Legion. I believe that’s not something that can be denied. Long story short they are guaranteed to have all the advantages possible on their side. So you see it is very different from weak 120 vs strong 120, both in the combat capabilities and in the mindset.
The XP vs PvP is a very good point, little to add here.
Same about queue time, I am aware it caused some fuss but you are certainly more knowledgeable about the actual time that I am.
It’s not a fairy tale. Of course a sub rogue might get nuked in 1v5 after killing one, maybe two, people because the class is weak, the class isn’t tanking, and there is little self healing. On the other hand I can assure you a Fury Warrior leaping at a group of 5 40-45 people and killing the weakest on the same global as the charge has decent chances to end up victorious, of course if that’s not double healer + stunbot + kitemaster class in the group of 5.
That being said 1v5 is a gross exaggeration on my side but clearly 1v2 are common if not normality and 1vs3 are seem not to be too much of an issue on most classes. It would be not admitting the obvious that the damage output of the popular twink classes is actually insane when compared with the health pool of average players which allows twins to overwhelm healers quickly and then the fight is lost.
I don’t know what you compare your Monk to, a random player with looms? Yourself with looms instead of bis on loom slots? Either way I don’t think that means much tbh It’s possible that as you said 30-39 isn’t very favorable to twink and so they don’t overpower others. But there are some brackets where twins have 5k health and the stats to go with that (for instance) + full consumables enchants and rocket or whatever, and with a character geared with blue dungeon loot and pvp procs and looms, sitting at max level for the bracket I had 4k. That’s 25% stats difference it is actually INSANE in pvp, and represents way more than 25% more damage or heals (increased by intellect, or agi, but then add haste, crit, etc). As someone who levels in looms I am well aware to tell the difference between a loomed player and a twink, it is rather obvious, but that’s certain that players even weaker or not really aware of what’s happening around them will not see it and badmouth twinks.
About the enchant well ofc it’s a bit exaggerated again, I like to make clear points and I expected anyone who reads this to know it’s not exactly a one-shot through enchants alone, but then again I also expected people who were either on the receiving end or on the giving end to acknowledge that when you have 4k hp, get charged, take 800 from an auto on mh, 400 from an auto oh, and 800 from satyr or whatever else it is (quick maths, that’s already half your health), you immediately blow a strong heal with a CD if you’re even a healer, and then the guy has his own gcd to cast a real spell on you as well as a new autos you just don’t live long, you might get stunned… True story. Combat log whispered me all this. I could talk about twink MM hunter critting 3k out of 5 with their first Aimed Shot but that’s not really the topic I’m afraid!
I tried to answer in the same order as you did but cba quoting I already type enough stuff myself. Worth mentioning I appreciated being answered by a message that displayed logic and intelligent arguments for a change.
For the love of Metzen, divide your post in to more paragraphs.