Tww is already boring

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Fkd-the-maelstrom

Well ye but then again, what is volume? The amount of actual content or a number and if it’s the number, which number. Because you seem to count dungeons vs dungeons but ignore the delves (as example) and say there was more content back then. But none of the numbers adds really up. If you count dungeons + delves from today, we have more. If you say delve is not comparable to a dungeon, ok, sure, I get that. But then you just ignore it as a number kinda completely. So it’s a bit weird…

I think it’s fairly straight-forward.

Every expansion has zones, quests, dungeons, and raids.
That’s the bread & butter of WoW and on this, each and every expansion can be compared to each other in terms of quantity of stuff and quality of production.

Then every expansion has new features. Those are different from expansion to expansion, but they’re still comparable despite being different.
Delves are different from Torghast, which is different from Island Expeditions, which is different from Scenarios, but it’s all comparable as a single expansion feature of similar production quality.

And every expansion has updates and improvements to existing content and systems. For PvP it’s Battleground Blitz this time. Last time it was Solo Shuffle.

So I don’t really feel this is as confusing and complex a matter as you make it out to be.
I think it’s pretty easy to rank the expansions in terms of volume of stuff, and also easily feel that as you play through them. Some are just bigger game experiences than others. The War Within is a fairly small expansion I would say.

@Fkd-the-maelstrom

Content is basically what you can play, it’s not solely dungeons or raids. And we definitely have more of it now than back in the days. I am not sure how someone can actually say otherwise. We can argue about quality of content but for me retails is far ahead in comparison to previous expansions.

Sure. A new expansion always adds to its previous total, so Retail as a whole will always grow bigger with time.
But I don’t think the lack of size in the latest expansion is excused because Retail is bigger than prior to the expansion being released. I mean, that goes without saying.
I think what’s more relevant is whether I get a comparable amount of stuff for my money in this expansion as I got in previous expansions. And my feeling is that I don’t. I get less. Demonstrably so.

@Fkd-the-maelstrom

Well I get that. You like questing, I hate questing.

No, I just used it as another example to get my point across. I used other examples previously. I can use others still. It matters not.

@Fkd-the-maelstrom

I like dungeons, I’d like more dungeons but good dungeons, not just something poorly made so it’s in the game to be a +1 number.

There’s no reason why Blizzard can’t make more than 8 dungeons that are also good dungeons. It’s not like Blizzard can only make 8 good dungeons and any more than that are going to be crap.
There’s no excuse for them not making 10 great dungeons, except that players have generally become satisfied with 8 somewhat-decent ones.
Who’s loss is that? Blizzard’s or ours?

[Isdy-wildhammer (Isdy)]

I was talking about the actual scale of real content compared to that which exists in TWW. Take for instance the faction issue, in Wrath the factions were very important and each zone had its own separate area of concentration plus own story quests. This segregation kept the levelling alive as you were , in those days, often alerted to faction attacks on your hub which prevented progression.

The day they abandoned the faction tensions they abandoned the very essence of this game. And the day they merged stories so that each are good buddies they took away the very reason for why the game was created in the first place. And the day they offered flying as the main mode of moving about the map they abandoned PVE in the form of exploration and adventure. No longer did map and mob challenges mean anything. And scaling is the nail in the coffin.

Having levelled a good amount of times in Wrath I very much enjoyed the progression that real ‘level based’ mob strengths, gear and objective status plus faction tension brought. The game was still managing a ‘Classic’ style model which lent more to player interaction to getting by. Today its all spoon-fed and made easy for player to log and do content and then leave without having much to do with any other players.

Also there was a fantastic sense of story progression in Wrath and it went on throughout the period of the game. I always sensed I was part of that process and it was a magical time to be part of this game.

It took me no time at all to do the campaign up to 80 in TWW and traverse the zones. I avoided the dragon to try and immerse myself better, but all the activities were so easy to get to and to complete. The one with the fuses and the barrels in the first zone as the climax to that area was childs stuff and not worthy of a game of this stature. But much of the progression was so simplistic you just felt the game wanted you at the sweets machine punching the button at 80 every single day. For me like I said its more about the journey and at no point did I feel the story was in sync with any so called levelling progression.

Its obvious the game no longer needs the levelling process or indeed the story quests. It could all play out on a video clip and then give you your kit so you can start dungeons and raiding. And its that great chasm between Wrath and TWW and any of the other expansions that came and went in a heart beat that I referred to.

For me there is a distinct sense of being short changed and not being offered value for money. Particularly if you know how much cutting and pasting is now taking place. Cus all that that went before and is now rehashed has already been paid for, many times over. I certainly didn’t get my moneys worth this time around, again.

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Sakul-burning-legion

the only content left is M+ that you’ll never get into, raids, 8 tiers delves 3x, and waiting for the next Wednesday?

" The only content left is " lists a lot of content

Name me one MMO that has half of that

[Fkd-the-maelstrom]

@Jito-turalyon

So I don’t really feel this is as confusing and complex a matter as you make it out to be.
I think it’s pretty easy to rank the expansions in terms of volume of stuff, and also easily feel that as you play through them. Some are just bigger game experiences than others. The War Within is a fairly small expansion I would say.

Well it is a bit confusing. If you ask most people, what they prefer, for example:

1. 10 quests
   or
2. 2 dungeons, 2 raids, 2 delves, 1 bg, 2 arenas

If I understand you correctly, you pick 1 because 10>9 but I’d assume most people want more “content”, basically more different stuff to do, which is why I said TWW offers much more than previous expansions, especially the old ones. Which also makes sense, since they try to pick all the “good” stuff from back then, maybe develop something new or at least test something new and then make a package out of it.

@Jito-turalyon

Delves are different from Torghast, which is different from Island Expeditions, which is different from Scenarios, but it’s all comparable as a single expansion feature of similar production quality.

Ye, like this for example. They attempted something, it turned out to be bad, they scratch it. I am not into Delves but it seems to be a MUCH bigger success than Torghast. I mean Torghast and success in one sentence already should be a crime.
But I also get your point, maybe I just don’t count failures as content, but then again, isn’t all these failed content still in the game? So even if it’s not in the endgame, it’s still accessible and playable, or is it not?

@Jito-turalyon

There’s no reason why Blizzard can’t make more than 8 dungeons that are also good dungeons. It’s not like Blizzard can only make 8 good dungeons and any more than that are going to be crap.

I honestly don’t know. It might be too expensive? I mean that’s the only proper reason I can think of. Remember, back then, when we had “more” dungeons, not all of them were good meanwhile we didn’t have stuff like M+ with different affixes, which requires more work and balanced, so basically more money. There was also no time walking (depends on expansion at this point) which is additional work, kinda.
And I also think they don’t want too many dungeons because people always feel like they have to do ALL of them and then probably even over and over again because of loot, idk. So there could be several factors.

@Jito-turalyon

There’s no excuse for them not making 10 great dungeons, except that players have generally become satisfied with 8 somewhat-decent ones.

I guess if we are speaking only of 8 vs 10, then yeah sure, they could be making 10. I don’t think this would be bad. But then again, if they give us 10 and someone comes around the corner says “why not 12?”… you know what I mean? Where should they stop? Maybe they thought the sweet spot is 8?
I hated most of the TBC dungeons for example, so idk if adding more would fix it. I rather have more quality than quantity at this point, because I personally am fine with 8. But with that being said I am not saying I like every single dungeon in TWW and think it’s a master piece. I am always for improvement but I just don’t think it’s always possible or at least that easy and win-win for both.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Fkd-the-maelstrom

I guess if we are speaking only of 8 vs 10, then yeah sure, they could be making 10. I don’t think this would be bad. But then again, if they give us 10 and someone comes around the corner says “why not 12?”… you know what I mean? Where should they stop? Maybe they thought the sweet spot is 8?

My point would be that the volume should never go down over time.

As time goes and Blizzard makes more expansions and get more experienced as developers, technology develops, and operations of production become more refined, they should become more effective at making new expansions, and thus able to deliver more product.
That’s plain old optimizing.

So if Blizzard have shown that in 2016, some 8 years ago, they could make a big expansion like Legion, then subsequent expansions should not be demonstrably smaller and smaller.

If they do get demonstrably smaller, then that implies that the internal development process is not operating in an optimal manner, or that it’s a deliberate business decision to cut back on development into new expansions.

Both reasons are bad from a customer and player perspective and not something that should just be quietly accepted.

I mean, as fans we ideally want the game to get better and better, bigger and bigger, and go from strength to strength, instead of limping ahead and shrinking in size over time.

[Dralkharn-draenor]

@Isdy-wildhammer

I was talking about the actual scale of real content compared to that which exists in TWW. Take for instance the faction issue, in Wrath the factions were very important and each zone had its own separate area of concentration plus own story quests.

meaningful content or quests? or do you really want to say that something like WotLK has more content despite lacking m+, delves and world quests.

@Isdy-wildhammer

This segregation kept the levelling alive as you were , in those days, often alerted to faction attacks on your hub which prevented progression.

You mean horde always winning events because faction imbalance, outdated badly designed system which were probably flavourful, for those times, but not doing actually what it was supposed to do in theory.

@Isdy-wildhammer

And the day they merged stories so that each are good buddies they took away the very reason for why the game was created in the first place.

this game was created to set mmorpg in Dramatic pause World of Warcraft! world of series of rts games named warcraft. if you knew more about warcraft story you would notice that faction tension was just a flavor since ehm, warcraft 3 i guess? They tried to make faction conflict prime focus in bfa, look what happened, people still have ptsd from writing.

@Isdy-wildhammer

And the day they offered flying as the main mode of moving about the map they abandoned PVE in the form of exploration and adventure.

exploration and adventure exist only in your head, if you try to force most of modern players to complete leveling in vanilla they’ll die from tedium (i almost did die from tedium). I think i actually had more sense of exploration in tww and df because i can look around and land whenever i like without constantly aggroing mobs in very compact location.

@Isdy-wildhammer

Having levelled a good amount of times in Wrath I very much enjoyed the progression that real ‘level based’ mob strengths, gear and objective status plus faction tension brought. The game was still managing a ‘Classic’ style model which lent more to player interaction to getting by. Today its all spoon-fed and made easy for player to log and do content and then leave without having much to do with any other players

Yeah that’s why this game still exists, it’s accesible, accesibilty is key in modern game development, most of the things that you try to paint as “elements that gave sense of exploration and adventure” were forum complaints of those times.

@Isdy-wildhammer

Also there was a fantastic sense of story progression in Wrath and it went on throughout the period of the game. I always sensed I was part of that process and it was a magical time to be part of this game.

fantastically magically beautiful adventurous grizzly hills dae remember when wow was good??
Try to take off rose tinted glasses, i really don’t know what to answer.

@Isdy-wildhammer

It took me no time at all to do the campaign up to 80 in TWW and traverse the zones. I avoided the dragon to try and immerse myself better, but all the activities were so easy to get to and to complete. The one with the fuses and the barrels in the first zone as the climax to that area was childs stuff and not worthy of a game of this stature

Baelgrim had more character than all of wotlk questgivers combined tho, which is saying much because his character is surface-level.

@Isdy-wildhammer

Its obvious the game no longer needs the levelling process or indeed the story quests.

It’s gotta be one of the worst takes on this forum, and every time someone says it i’m going to puke from amounts of snobism, questing in this expac is really really good.

@Isdy-wildhammer

For me there is a distinct sense of being short changed and not being offered value for money.

Yeah because when you played wotlk you were a kid and now in you adult age you percieve things with higher amounts of cynism.

If i was younger i would’ve said some cliche phrase about “you’ve grown up and your taste in media became more demanding” but since then i became much more cynical too and can’t percieve people on internet in such high regards, after all to actually have a formed taste you need to be able to separate nostalgia from reality and try to judge things as they actually were.

[Dralkharn-draenor]

@Jito-turalyon

I mean, as fans we ideally want the game to get better and better, bigger and bigger

That’s why starfiled is objectively better game than skyrim. tis bigger, therefore better.

[Vulaang-kul-tiras]

@As-silvermoon

Yes, but since you couldn’t plan you couldn’t farm it and it was in addition to weekly loot, so gave everyone who participated in something a shot at something extra, even if the chances were small. Why is extra loot bad? It only annoyed elitist idiots who didn’t want random Joe getting something good on a very small chance. It’s an addition not a replacement to something else.

I hated titanforging back in the day due to

1. constant disappointment
2. lack of upgrade tracks.

Now however it’d be great if they brought it back that - randomly you can get a "lowest level of higher upgrade track in a given content.

If it sounds convoluted - if you do LFR - normally it drops veteran - but sometimes the boss could “roll” a champion track item. on a small chance.

I doubt it would hurt anyone.

Same for normal etc.

Just a thought.

[Elahra-mograine]

@As-silvermoon

Why is extra loot bad? It only annoyed elitist idiots who didn’t want random Joe getting something good on a very small chance. It’s an addition not a replacement to something else.

It’s not just “extra loot” though.

It completely destroyed sense of progression.

I got a titanforged trinket from a lower key in BFA that I couldn’t replace until next season when I obtained the same trinket at a higher ilvl from a key higher than I obtained it at in previous season.

Like? A new season the same trinket should be an upgrade instantly if it drops, not having to do a higher key than I did previous season just because it titanforged.

[Cunix-turalyon]

Just delete wow then. Why are u even sitting on forum, crying like a little toddler like holy moly what’s next. You gonna complain that every expansion ever, was just run raids and then do pvp when raids were on cooldown.

[Statice-auchindoun]

@Sakul-burning-legion

So this is it ?? The hype fog has already settled, the only content left is M+ that you’ll never get into, raids, 8 tiers delves 3x, and waiting for the next Wednesday? ;p I hope they continue with the story and new content because it’s starting to look like WoD 2.0 ^^

This happens to a degree in every expansion. This isn’t new and it isn’t bad. It would be exhausting if there was no “waiting around” to give people time to do literally anything else with their lives. Most people want to have time to play alts, play other games, or do something other than gaming.

Also it can’t be WoD 2.0 unless two major cities and a raid get cut from the expansion. Too early to talk about the raid, and no cities have been cut. …well aside from Dalaran but that was a lore decision, not the devs running out of time

[Faveyo-die-nachtwache]

@Sakul-burning-legion

look like WoD 2.0 ^

then u havent played wod, we already got more content “besides of raids” in one season, than in the entire wod timeline, im having fun currently but not enough time

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Mancómb-ravencrest

That’s how every recent expansion has worked

That’s how every MMO works my dude. If you could get fully geared in 2 weeks you’d quit and the game would die.

[Snackstation-wild-growth]

@Isdy-wildhammer

Also there was a fantastic sense of story progression in Wrath and it went on throughout the period of the game. I always sensed I was part of that process and it was a magical time to be part of this game.

I totally agree. It was the best time in WoW for me.

[Snackstation-wild-growth]

@Fkd-the-maelstrom

I am not into Delves but it seems to be a MUCH bigger success than Torghast.

Yeah because it gives loot and vault rewards. If it didn’t they would also be a flop.

[Fkd-the-maelstrom]

@Snackstation-wild-growth

Yeah because it gives loot and vault rewards. If it didn’t they would also be a flop.

Ye and if there was no sun we would be dead… I mean…

[Lustyhoro-draenor]

While wrath was / is great, could the big part just being that back then most of us were different persons, less jaded… ofc everything felt much more fresh and magical. Can’t expect that last in same game for decades.

Nostalgia is a powerful drug. But at least i didn’t feel the same in wrath classic as i did during original wrath.

[Sneakykebab-outland]

TWW is dogshiet
1- Raid- a mess , boring mess worse than any raid in df.
2- Delves- absolute trash
3- dungeons- non balanced mess full of frustration.
And all above is boring af …

[Hjorik-silvermoon]

@Sakul-burning-legion

the only content left is M+ that you’ll never get into, raids, 8 tiers delves 3x, and waiting for the next Wednesday?

What do you mean? Warcraft was always like this. The end game is either PVE (M+, raids, Delves) or PVP.

You say it like you played a different game until now or something.

[Sylvare-argent-dawn (Sylvare)]

Sorry to hear about your personal experiences with TWW not being what you hoped they would be

@Sneakykebab-outland

Titanforging

slot machine casino BS