I don’t beleive MoP class design can be summed up as “too much CC”. There are many more things that have to be taken into account, and if this particular aspect reveals itself to be too prevalent, there are ways to make it less so.
Thinking about it, a thing I loved in MoP is how there was no (or very few) spec-specific talents: They were almost all class-wide. This forced the devs to put all the things a spec needed in its core gameplay (as putting it as a talent would make it mandatory and make that choice irrelevant), and to think outside the box to create interesting talents capable to benefit every spec.
It also pushed them to make wildly different specs while still having a feeling of being the same class from one spec to another. They could all play differently but the core gameplay had to be there because all the talents had to work within it, which made it a necessity to give the core class a few tools for everything: A spec only improved some of its aspects.
Lol, ring has a 45 second cooldown and is mostly useless without any cc beforehand anyway.
Iceward is only useful if you play double caster against a double melee comp. Other than that, useless but yeah.
Frostjaw is absolutely useless as frostmage. No. As firemage you play it, yet lack any kind of slow / double nova.
But what i see here are different options. Something the game is currently lacking. Thanks for pointing that out.
absolutely useless after S12, not even played with any spec.
Blizzard isn’t really a CC in MoP, sorry to break it to you. With all the mobility and gap closer, slows were not a problem at all. So again, no point.
What ? Talking about block or ? I’m so confused, please make sense.
No ? Again, if you’re hardstuck in CC you simply got outplayed, what is so hard to grasp about it. You can’t say the game sucks just because you suck. Like what lol
And yet RMD wasn’t even considered Top Tier when looking at L.SD/L.SD2/HLS/WWLS who could simply stop those chains easily. Idk why you would think you can simply CC someone forever but that wasn’t the case.
Actually nevermind, against a player like you i could probably cc the entire game tho, not gonna lie.
Are you talking about subterfuge ? Because that’s the only way a rogue could “spam” opener. Please explain
Dragon roar was not relevant in PvP (after the very first season) at all, I’m confused as to why this even matters for you ?
And yet theres a thread on AJ which shows how many people are interested in playing this expansion
@depoxxysbabe are you going to reply with facts like they are doing or just keep posting more trash? Please tell me so I save myself time and just hide your posts.
Fire mage did have a slow, although it was seldom used.
There is literally still a CC tier in the talent tree. I mean sure, there aren’t two, which there never needed to be, but there still is one.
Also, it’s not really much of a choice if there’s always one correct option against every possible comp and you can always change it after you know which comp you’ll get.
It’s sort-of like knowing what build your opponent is going for in StarCraft 2 and therefore always being able to respond accordingly.
MoP’s talent system completely wrecked the PvP meta, and it has never recovered. (Because the talent system is still with us)
Aaaand?
A slow is a CC. It is not a hard CC, which is why I didn’t count it in the 80%, but it is a CC.
The end.
I am making sense. You’re just being hostile and unable to remember the truth of what a terrible expansion it was. It had FAR too many abilities. The WoD prune was called for, it was just executed extremely poorly.
And Block? Sure. Or Alter Time. Or the shield.
These spells are spells that will immediately undo whatever you do to the mage. They are not hard CC’s so I have not counted them, but they nevertheless another layer of the ridiculous “can’t touch me cause I have 10 CC’s and 8 defensive cooldowns” meta of MoP.
If you go back and watch the tournaments, you’ll actually see the massive CC chains with everyone being topped while the healer sits in CC anyway, and then nothing is happening because all the damage is concentrated in swifty macros. Then suddenly a guy gets absolutely wrecked by a swift macro within 5-8 seconds. Every single game on the old VoD’s look like this. All of them.
Do you remember how healers could literally top someone off in less than 3 casts in MoP? Because they had to be able to because the CC was that massive?
I do.
I said “like” as in I couldn’t rember the exact number - but it is actually not really that important if it was 13 or 20, because you still got CC’d to hell and back.
Anyhow, look at the stun and roots DR categories. Just look at it. It’s got 37 spells in it! And sure, some of those are varieties where you can’t have both at once, but… come on.
How in the absolute hell can you come and tell me that MoP had little ability to set up long CC chains when that’s in the game?
And then when we get to the long CC chains… several roots, many stuns, cyclone all on just one class (druid) and then you add poly and sap being in one and then you add silence effects and blind being on a separate DR’s and then there’s also 2 different interrupts and just… it’s insanity.
And that’s just RMD. It could get way worse.
There’s also other ridiculous nonsense in here like there being a Mesmerize category, but the spell Mesmerize is in the Fear category?
Honestly, get lost trying to tell me that MoP had a reasonable amount of CC. You just can’t remember what it was like to play it. That is the only logical explanation.
Deep Freeze → Poly → OH MY GOD HE GOT SO OUTPLAYED x’‘’''D
Take a step back. Get the rose-tinted goggles off. Wake up.
Not forever. Just around 40-50 seconds at a time.
Firstly I was 2.5k on feral at the time, but the expansion was so awful I actually became a PvE’er and have been one ever since. Secondly those stats are from ****ING WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES. I actually remember one of those games featuring Cdew being CC’d for 82% of the game I believe it was. You cannot possibly be so stupid as to say that this had anything to do with me, can you?
I remember in one of the qualifiers for WCS 2014 or 2015 they had these scoreboards, and the last column was time spent in CC as a percentage, and I remember that moment in particular when I saw it because my jaw dropped to the floor. Unfortunately I can’t find it right now, but if I stumble across it I’ll let you know.
nah there was plenty of utility spells in the past not so much for dps rotations (nonexistant), however cataclysm and wrath design pushed these forward, MOP just gave uncessesary utility upgrade , very often and very borring spells as you have health regen in combat the others will have the same (passive btw) or active simple % dmg taken reduction and thats realy not about dps buttons, it has nothing to do about too much buttons to press actualy warlocks had overall more buttons in wrath then in MoP and much more usefull dps spells in cata then in MoP. snapshoting also wasnt the Mop future (in TBC you could do it too), just insenaly broken trinket from Thunder King made it notoriously clear to almost everyone …old mechanic which has been used many years before Mop was removed later becouse of scaling issues, dot classes were imbalancible too weak/good… so it has been removed…
it might be the truth for you but I for my part have difficulties remembering your truth, maybe remembering other peoples opinions isn’t one of my strengths.
We get it you really didn’t like mists and that’s fine, unlike 95% of the mist haters who constantly argue with stuff like “panda-expansion”, “furry invasion”, “muh lore”, etc., you actually seem have some valid reasons you probably thought about quite some time which I can respect.
but you should also understand that there are people who genuinely liked mists who aren’t blinded by some “rose-tinted-glasses” and should just “remember” how bad the expansion actually was because as I said, I have difficulties remembering other peoples thoughts.
Oh since you started calling names I assume I can reply the same way to you.
Man surely looks like you have some sort of intellectual disability, or some sort of dysfunction that makes you not able to understand why MOP class design was trash
The fact is MOP class design was cc cc cc cc cc cc for all, mages were like rogues. Warlocks like melee and the list just goes on.
Arguing with you is like explaining the sky is blue for a dysfunctioned blind color boy who thinks it is pink.
Oh and please get yourself boosted in WC like you did for the other 15, it is embarrassing to see someone with your ilvl cannot go beyond WC7+. You talk about LFR boys, at least they are not paying for boosts like you.
Part of it yes, and I agree with you that MoP simply had unreasonable amounts of CC. But if you are being honest to yourself, if you had to pick between Legion or BfA class design and MoP, wouldn’t you also choose the latter? And again if you think of the issue reasonably, they wouldn’t possibly consider something before MoP, Cataclysm isn’t exactly an expansion quoted by people as having great gameplay or even being good, and the original trilogy will become available through Classic in all likelihood. So if they would ever consider taking inspiration from a point back in time, it’s really possible the best realistic point they could look into would be MoP in fact.
It’s hard to say. They are both ridiculously terrible in their own ways.
MoP has the problem of swifty stacks, especially within damage, overpowered healing, ridiculous levels of CC, and just way too many utility and mobility buttons.
It then also features some very complex rotations but with little choice within them, though some of them didn’t work correctly and could just be put into castsequence macros (also called lazy-macros) and played perfectly or near perfectly.
It had so many buttons I literally had problems playing it. To be fair, I have small hands, but I shouldn’t have to bind abilities to ctrl+shift+E and things like that.
WoD has a new set of issues. The CC is toned back substantially and the DR’s I believe were ultimately settled on 8 categories, the healing is more reasonable, but the ridiculous mobility and some of the crazy utility did remain, and the swifty macro was now a swifty spell. They just merged the swifty macro. Nobody asked for that?!
WoD falls flat on class design because it does a lot of work to reduce the intricate complexity of the simple, rotational spells for no apparent reason, then slides in a bunch of wonky RNG to try to break the lazy-macros, which it does perfectly. Snap shotting is gone is a good example, because Blizzard just couldn’t help themselves simplify gear even more.
So what’s an appropriate jumping off point here? Well, neither honestly.
I mean… I get where you’re going, but I really don’t think we should have to play older versions of the game just to enjoy great class design (and a social experience). Obviously it’d still be different in Shadowlands than it was in tBC - a bit more refined - but I don’t really agree that, because Classic would have good class design, therefore it’s okay that retail doesn’t.
And I’d go so far as to say that people who miss MoP class design just don’t know what came before it. I would certainly prefer Cata class design to MoP. Absolutely.
Anyone remembers how MoP had like 80% PvP Power and 70% PvP Resilience, and any time it broke, which it did quite frequently by the way and most infamously with BM hunters, people just got pretty much globalled.
MoP was just all sorts of ridiculous.
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Here’s what I would do:
First you take my gaering system. I actually got a lot of this in Shadowlands already, but it’s important to read this to understand the rest:
Then we have to kill the current talent system. Just take it out back and shoot it. We don’t need it. Get the old trees back. I don’t care about whatever perceived weaknesses they have, they are just plain better. I prefer having my talents and loadouts concentrated in a single tree as opposed to having them on Azerite pieces, necklace, talents, spec, corruption gear, and PvP talents all at once. Blizzard, calm down ffs. xD
Once we’ve gotten things a little more settled and a little bit less overwhelmingly full of RNG, and we’ve got a more varied, set-in-stone, less RNG’y loot system, we can begin to focus on the classes themselves.
Take the swifty cooldowns out back and shoot them. It is not fun to be useful a minority of the time, and it is not fun to be on the receiving end of a cooldown stack.
Introduce far more complexity in the rotation. In other words, don’t have a rotation at all, but make a dozen, or maybe more, spells that all have a unique use. If the enemy keeps doing the same, then you get to keep spamming the same, and that’s fine. Your abilities should be a response to what an enemy does, not a response to whims of the Gods of RNG. I really don’t care if it’s fun to play against a target dummy. Unfortunately, people like Bellular and Blizzard themselves are working against me on this.
Fortunately, there still is some of it being done, like all mages having Arcane Explosion or Frostbolt again. Great decision!
Once we’ve gotten these things under control and we reintroduce snapshotting (BUT KEEP TRINKETS SANE. THEY DON’T NEED TO ADD TO THE SWIFTY MACROS!!!), we should find ourselves in a kind-of hybrid scenario between tBC and WotLK.
Then you sprinkle the covenant abilities on top, which gets us a little bit of that MoP juice, but not too much, and then I think we’re there.
So, if I have to be honest with myself - would I rather have MoP or WoD class design for PvP? My answer is: No.
Cataclysm isn’t exactly an expansion quoted by people as having great gameplay or even being good, and the original trilogy will become available through Classic in all likelihood. So if they would ever consider taking inspiration from a point back in time, it’s really possible the best realistic point they could look into would be MoP in fact.
Cataclysm change the gameplay from Rotations to Prioritizing system. That revolutionize the rotations you play with.
Cataclysm also had far better gameplay than MOP. Just watch youtube and see how the classes were played back then instead of making a judgment based on just what people say lol.
Since Blizzard openly said that “Mop : we’re starting to see some issues here, classes were powercreeped towards dangerous places” I don’t think they are considering Cata or MoP or WoD gameplay style. But on the same time, players complained aboot Legion and BFA. So what’s left ? The original trilogy. Which is kinda sad. I do think there was another path to choose, which was going away from all previous expansions.
At least, we could not grouping a player based on his template ! Nice !
More seriously, I do think that even talent trees don’t belong to the game. Let me explain : a class wide talent tree seems meh imo, since we all shifted from playing classes to spec around Wotlk/cata. At this point, going back doesn’t seem great. However, a legion artifact style talent tree could be great. Yes, I know, it removes choices, but a spec talent tree only is imo the best solution.
Mmmmh I disagree.
It’s them finding a fairly easy way to appease the ‘unhappy about the pruning crowd’.
I don’t think they actually want to ‘switch back’. But rather, just giving us some silly skills from yesteryear to get an easy ‘fix’.
The Legion class fantasies are strongly in place for the vast majority of classes.
And frankly, I’m fine with it.
