How about that crazy Forsaken doctor from Cata in Hillsbrad?
Or about 3 missions touching Lor’danel while in 8.1. we see that this city is destroyed long ago?
Can you point to me one part where it goes against the mission table?
I can’t. I was basing my reasoning from Alliance poster saying the NE retake all their land.
I’ve checked them now on Blizzplanet
It look like it was just some guerilla and the only NE land retaken was Lordanel (Which is strange because it look like the NE base in Auberdine in 8.1)
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Define long ago. It is probably destroyed between 8.0 and 8.1. As for the crazy doctor, probably a nod to our previous faction war.
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It would even make sense, because you see seriously wounded sentinels & prisoners of them in the night warrior scenario.
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It was retaken in 8.0 most likely and fell to the Horde between 8.0 and 8.1, thus why it is plagued out.
Edit : got rid of my other parts because Araphant has done it for me.
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I wouldn’t put too much stock into the Mission Table text. As others have noted it’s already been contradicted by 8.1 and let’s be real, the text was probably there for flair and I doubt Blizzard so much as batted an eye to it as they were designing 8.1 content.
None of it is contradicted and any parts what can be considered it have explanations behind it.
For example Lor’danel was in control of the Alliance in 8.0. The mission table has the Alliance defend it and the Horde attack it. 8.1 it is blighted. Clearly the Horde won the battle.
Can anyone point out a part where there is no logical explanation to it?
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Mission table is canon as we were specifically told that it was put in to show the war outside other gameplay.
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Thats kind of big. Do you have an actual source for that?
Because yeah, if we are to come up with speculations regarding how the events refered to in those quests unfolded, or what their definitive outcome was…then once we have an actual clarification, we risk being proved wrong.
That doesn’t mean they aren’t canon.
Where?
Please, quote where does it say the conflict had such a definitive outcome.
Where? The only thing i found referencing Darkshore was this point:
Following the burning of Teldrassil, the Horde are entrenching themselves in northern Darkshore. Eliminate their chief engineer to halt progress.
It already points at what we know regarding Darkshore and how the warfront kickstarts.
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Taking a look at Kalimdor and the conflict surrounding the night elf areas, and looking at both side quests of the mission table, can’t seem to find these so-called decisive victories in Night elf lands:
- Warsong Lumbering Operations.
Horde: The dryad Illiyana has rallied her sisters in Forest Song. Their nature magic is destroying our Shredders. Eliminate them all.
Alliance: Warsong Lumber Camp supplies the Horde war machine with lumber. Commandeer a Shredder to wreak havoc on their supply lines.
Outcome: Unclear, depends on which side happened first. And we dont know that.
- Astranaar
Horde: Thenysil commands the remaining Sentinels in Ashenvale. Infiltrate Astranaar and take her down before they muster their strength.
Alliance: The Horde commander responsible for the fall of Silverwind Refuge marches against Astranaar. Show him the Alliance will not give up Ashenvale so easily.
Outcome: Unclear, depends on which side happened first. And we dont know that.
- Bilgewater Port
Horde: Alliance forces sabotaged Gallywix’s Pride, the great gun above Bilgewater Harbor. See it repaired to secure Bladefist Bay.
Alliance: Gallywix’s Pride is situated atop Bilgewater Harbor. While the monstrous cannon exists, any assault against Orgrimmar will be impossible. Sabotage the great gun
Outcome: Horde reparied the gun and nullified the Alliance effort.
- Stardust Spire
Horde: Alliance soldiers continue pouring into Ashenvale, reinforcing their holdings. Investigate Stardust Spire for any weaknesses.
Alliance: Sergeant Dontrag leads a Horde assault against Stardust Spire. Eliminating him could sow chaos in the enemy’s battle plan. See it done
Outcome: Unknown, we don’t know which side happened first, or how succesful each attack was.
- Blackfathom deeps
Horde: The Alliance is showing a renewed interest in Blackfathom Deeps. Send our scouts to investigate what they have found there.
Alliance: The Horde is showing a renewed interest in Blackfathom Deeps. Send our scouts to investigate what they have found there
Outcome:Unknown, mirrored quests.
- Splintertree Post
Horde: The kal’dorei siege our outposts across Ashenvale. Splintertree Post must not be allowed to fall. Send reinforcements.
Alliance: Splintertree Post has withstood siege by the Sentinel army for too long. Send reinforcements to demolish the Horde base camp
Outcome: Unknown, we don’t know which side happened first, or how succesful each attack was.
- Shrine of Aessina.
Horde: An ancient of war allied with the Sentinels stands vigil over the Shrine of Aessina. Burn it to the ground.
Alliance: The ancient of war, Big Baobob, requires assistance rebuilding the defenses around the Shrine of Aessina. Send the necessary resources
Outcome: Unknown, we don’t know which side happened first, or how succesful each attack was.
- Ashenvale Pass
Horde: Maestra’s Post controls the pass between Ashenvale and Darkshore. Moon Priestess Maestra’s vigil must end. Bring her down…
Alliance: Maestra’s Post controls the pass between Ashenvale and Darkshore. Orux Thrice-Damned is leading an attack to take control of the region. Take him down
Outcome: Unknown, mirrored quests.
- Teldrassil evacuation.
Horde: Dentaria Silverglade in Lor’danel oversees the evacuation of the Teldrassian survivors to Azuremyst. Slaying her will sow chaos in their ranks.
Alliance: A Horde army marches north to Lor’danel; Blood Guard Rockrain at the fore. Send our forces to stall his aggression, so the evacuation of Teldrassil can continue.
Outcome: Unknown, we don’t know which side happened first, or how succesful each attack was.
- Zoram’gar Outpost
Horde: The Zoram’gar Docks will be vital for any assault against Azuremyst Isle. Plant depth charges to prevent any naval assault by the Alliance.
Alliance: Zoram’gar Outpost is the Horde’s only port near Azuremyst Isle. Plant depth charges in the surrounding waters to prevent a naval assault
Outcome: Unknown, we don’t know which side happened first, or how succesful each attack was.
- Auberdine
Horde: New Azerite-powered shredders devised by our goblin allies are salvaging the ruins of Auberdine. Prevent any Alliance spies from gathering information.
Alliance: Goblin salvagers have a new Azerite-powered shredder model dismanting the ruins of Auberdine. Steal or sabotage their tech
Outcome: Unknown, we don’t know which side happened first, or how succesful each attack was.
- Darkshore.
Horde: Night elves streaming out of Darnassus pose a threat to Shatterspear Vale. Construct defenses in the nearby war camp to protect our troll allies.
Alliance: Following the burning of Teldrassil, the Horde are entrenching themselves in northern Darkshore. Eliminate their chief engineer to halt progress
Outcome: These quests aren’t mutually exclusive, but again, we don’t know how succesful they were.
- Silverwind Refuge
Horde: Huntress Jalin leads her Sentinels against Silverwind Refuge, attempting to retake it for the Alliance. Throw them back.
Alliance: Sentinels from Stardust Spire will soon launch an assault to retake Silverwind Refuge from the Horde. Send our finest to bolster their charge
Outcome: These quests aren’t mutually exclusive, but again, we don’t know how succesful they were.
Which of these represents a definitive victory for the Night elves? Because really, can’t see it.
We then have a mirrored situation with the Forsaken lands, and yet more conflict on neutral/conflicted lands such as Southern Barrens. If anyone wants to bother elaborating something similar as the thing i did, matching both sides quests, do so.
As of now, i can’t see the Night elf victory in these lands. I see lots of conflicted points. But nothing else.
The fight in Forsaken lands is pretty similar, as is the one in the Barrens. Inconclusive.
I most cases, we could come up with several hundred possible outcomes, depending on which side we consider was succesful, which one came first or second, and a thousand other reasons.
I suggest glasses. Your second Mission in Astranaar shows that the Alliance holds it definitely. That is the biggest settlement in Ashenvale, and the Horde does not retake it in their mission. It only assassinates their commander.
It is obvious the night elves are in Ashenvale, and in force.
Your mission number four claims that the Alliance has several holdings in Ashenvale. You kill one Sergeant. That does seem so comparable.
Your mission number six shows that the Kaldorei have the strength to mount a siege of Splintertree post, which is on the Horde side of Ashenvale.
The very fact that the Alliance has sufficient strength in Ashenvale for these assaults after the War of Thorns, while the Horde is unable of contesting their holdings despite their position of strength is painting a very clear picture. Your grip is slipping.
And this is in Kalimdor where the Alliance is weaker and the night elves took tough loses.
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And meanwhile, number 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 1, point at the Horde controlling the rest of the key settlements across Ashenvale and Darkshore.
While their army isn’t in Ashenvale mind you, as most left to defend UC and for the Arathi warfront.
Not knowing how successful said assaults were, substract any value they may have. The Horde isnt able to contest their holdings? They have settled bases all over Night elf lands and are living out of Night elf resources in Darkshore, Auberdine, Silverwind, and Splintertree.
Most of the War of Thorns was accomplished during a time when most of the Night elf military was out of the map. Specially the Ashenvale part.
And the Horde isn’t stronger in Kalimdor at the moment. Most Kalimdor armies are involved in Arathi. They are in EK.
So no, controlling a single settlement doesn’t equate taking back the whole place. Specially if it’s a place referenced as being under surveillance and infiltration attacks.
Irrelevant to the argument that the Alliance holds huge swaths of land in Ashenvale after the War of Thorns.
Source on this?
The fact that the Alliance holds Astranar and Maestra’s post while besieging Horde camps is a clear indication of the fact that the night elves are back in game. Further more, the outcome is irrelevant for this conclusion.
Source, please? As we see a strong Horde presence in Darkshore in the Terror of Darkshore Cinematic.
But controlling several settlements according to the mission table and attacking Horde settlements does. Further more, no one said that the Alliance is taking the entire place back, but the fact that the night elves are back in force after the knockout is a clear indication that the Horde’s grip is slipping.
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A single settlement doesn’t equate huge swaths of land. Specially given it’s location, and the fact it’s surrounded by settlements controlled by the Horde.
Saurfang moved most of the Horde army to help evacuate UC. Sylvanas ordered him to.
And most of the troops stationed or sent to Arathi are orcs and trolls. Commanded by Kalimdor generals such as Eitrigg or Rokhan.
Also, given the lone presence that rose to fight the Night elf uprising in 8.1 are the Forsaken, also indicates that the Kalimdor armies are elsewhere.
Either on Zuldazar or taking care of the warfront that is currently taking place.
Arguing they are wearing their asses of sitting motionless on Ashenvale doesn’t make any sense and contradicts everything we’ve been shown in game regarding orc army movements.
There are intermediate stages between having uncontested control over some area, or losing the territory altogether.
Having the Night elves fighting back (which is something to be expected), doesn’t automatically imply the Horde is losing the territory. We don’t know how successful said attacks are.
Specially given their initial campaign wasn’t about controlling all Ashenvale, and instead simply focused on rushing past said land to reach Teldrassil the soonest.
And specially if given the whole scenario, the Horde apparently holds a greater number of settlements than the night elves.
Again, fighting doesn’t equate automatically to be winning. And overall, the Alliance/Horde holdings ratio, greatly favours the red faction.
Even if it’s some land that started of being entirely Alliance after SoO.
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Actually, the Alliance does not hold a single settlement. According to the mission table you provided, the Alliance has several holdings. And I find it hard how you see that they are surrounded as the map is rather unclear with that. I will use your own quote below:
Further more, the Alliance holds Stardust Spire, Forest Song, Maestra’s post and Astranaar itself. I left the shrine of Aessina out as I am unsure if the Sentinels have a presence there. That is a minimum of four with the capital, and some of the settlements are uncertain in status.
Astranaar also can not be taken as a single settlement as it is the capital of the zone itself, and the largest hub in Ashenvale. in addition, the Horde’s own largest settlement in the zone is under siege as we can see that Splintertree post is besieged.
Further more, you claim that the Kaldorei settlements are surrounded, yet this mission shows that they are the ones who have the initiative.
So, your claim that the Alliance holds a single settlement is down, and heavily so. This mission above also states that the night elves are attacking all over Ashenvale. That statement is unrelated to the outcome of the mission itself. Further more, a lot of camps are unaccounted for.
You do not have a source of how many of the Kalimdor Horde troops Saurfang brought with him. Even if I am willing to allow that it was a significant portion, this does not change my conclusions.
The Forsaken also fight in Kalimdor.
The Alliance missions in Ashenvale actually show a lot of Orcish and Kalimdor Horde movements. Feel free to check the foes on them.
Actually, the fact that the night elves are capable of seizing the initiative after the fiasco which was the War of the Thorns is not something which can be seen as neutral or an intermediate stage. The War of Thorns ended in a clear Horde victory, that victory is now being sorely contested. No dancing around that, apologies.
You will forgive me for doubting your counting skill after the “One settlement claim”. The very sources you use dispute your claim.
Check my above argument.
This land started as being fully Horde after the War of the Thorns. Yet look at what’s happening now.
You are also unable to provide any sources on the numbers the Horde has or the night elves have, so you can not claim that the majority of the Horde is away.
Further more, even if the majority of the Horde is away, the night elves lost half of their standing army, yet they are the ones who have the initiative, despite facing a significant portion (if not the majority) of Horde forces.
A lot of your logic simply doesn’t add up.
edit: Edited several times, typos and brevity.
edit 2: Added another portion, cause insomnia.
My personal stance on the Ashenvale conflict and the entire night elf thing is that the Horde is in a position of power. The night elf guerilla comeback is incapable of scoring a decisive victory over the Horde, courtesy of the night elf’s relative weakness (because heavy losses), and is only that, a come back. Not a victory.
Meanwhile, the Horde is incapable of stopping the night elves, because guerilla warfare done by freaking night elves in Ashenvale is not easily countered, so both sides are forced into an indecisive stalemate.
Only with the Darkshore Warfront do the night elves go into open battle and with the intention to hold something more then outposts. But then again, the fact that the night elves are capable of these actions after Teldrassil is no minor thing.
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Several holdings that given the rest of the quests, aren’t significant enough to be named. It could be temporary military camps, or minor settlements over the place.
Or it could be refering to Stardust Spire, Forest Song, Maestra’s post and Astranaar.
Also, giving Forest Song to the Alliance seems rather dubious, as there is some Horde quest already that points at wiping them all out.
And contrary to plenty other events around the area, the Alliance side doesn’t negate this fact, and tackles the Warsong Lumber Operations from a different angle.
I can’t find a source for this. I did find:
Silverwind Refuge, which had been a major outpost in Ashenvale
along with Astranaar
Silverwind is considered par on Astraanar regarding importance. And is controlled by the Horde.
Splintertree isn’t the largets Horde post in the area.
How so? Its unclear which side struck first.
You are stating that the majority of the Horde army is settled in Kalimdor, while the Warfront in Arathi is taking place on the opposite continent, the war campaign against Kul tiras is in the EK, and the top generals of the faction are physically a continent away. That doesn’t make any sense.
And i’m omitting what we are actually shown ingame and the heavy orc presence shown in Zuldazar, Argorok, etc.
And you are taking those quests and interpreting them as in “the Horde army is here, but the Night elves are doing this by themselves”. What source do YOU have that the Alliance army is elsewhere?.
I mean, number 4 references Alliance soldiers pouring into the land. Not Night elves.
No, it wasn’t. The goal of the War of Thorns wasn’t to conquer all of Ashenvale, it was to clear a path all the way up to Darkshore and conquer Teldrassil the fastest way possible.
They used rogues to spread the Night elf forces thin, by attacking their outposts all over the land, while the army marched past Astraanar and into Darkshore.
They never bothered conquering the whole land:
The goal was to quickly destroy the kaldorei’s defenses and clear a path all the way to [Darkshore], and conquer [Teldrassil] before the reinforcements that [Stormwind] would surely send arrived. While Saurfang diverted the troops, he sent the champion to [Lorash], the operative outside Astranaar, for further instruction
Also, it speaks volumes if the Horde ends up controlling as many important settlements in the land, given they were forced to give them all back after SoO.
Regarding the Night elf initiative, its not clear thats the case. They are on the offensive which is the natural thing as they are surrounded everywhere and have most their land conquered.
But that doesn’t give them any kind of edge, or even proves the Horde isn’t having the initiative of scouring the land to wipe them all, and hunt down the remaining forces they have left.
It depends on which side you considered happened first in these quests.
Says who?
You may check Ashenvale’s Wowpedia page for the capitals of each faction. Further more, Astranaar is a city, Silverwind is just a military outpost.
Wowpedia disagrees.
Because the Alliance lacks a mission saying that their outposts in Ashenvale are under attack by the Horde?
I somehow remember seeing Nathanos in Darkshore. Does he count like a top general? Further more, you have failed to provide a source.
You made a claim, burden of proving it is on you, so not whataboutisms. So, feel free to prove that the majority of the Alliance army is in Ashenvale. You are picking the “Horde army is away” interpretation on purpose to dodge the implications.
Saurfang took Astranaar. He also said that “Ashenvale belongs to the Horde”.
This isn’t even an argument. Two separate military engagements. Also, nice logic. Horde presence speaks volumes according to you on account of the previous war.But night elven presence on the account of the one going on right now does not.
Not really, as Horde missions speak of elves attacking everywhere and Horde mission outcomes do not negate those statements. Further more, the largest Horde base is besieged.
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The fact that those settlements don’t even have a name.
Gameplay. Went over the official page for Astraanar, not once does it mention its the capital.
The latests piece of lore points at Silverwind being as strong as Astranaar. As important.
Splintertree was sieged during Cataclysm and most its inhabitants fled or got killed. As of now, its no longer a strong Horde settlement.
Take the latest piece of lore (Cataclysm epigraph).
The latest piece of lore, Elegy, also points at both Astraanar and Silverwind Outpost to be par on strenght.
Numbers: 8, 7, 1.
No, YOU made the claim:
I tackled the side that concerns my argument. Pointed at events that happen a continent away, at relevant figures that are physically out of the area, and a whole warfront and war campaign that pinpoint the Horde forces elsewhere.
Now, do your part. Show me the source that states that the Horde forces there are indeed stronger than the Alliance ones. That they aren’t managing to hold their ground against the the majority of the Alliance forces that “Keep pouring into Ashenvale”.
Yeah, i remember him leading the war effort in Kul Tiras while all these quests took place.
Rethorical speech. We know the objectives he took down, we know where he went and how he managed the campaign.
He didn’t attack any relevant Night elf outpost directly, and its EXPLICTLY said, that the whole purpose of said war was about rushing past Ashenvale to get to Darkshore the soonest possible.
Thats the point of deploying rogues to engage against the rest of the outposts. Thats the point of not sending the whole army against those.
It does. If the ones that supposedly are being “pushed out” are controlling most of the relevant outposts across the land, even if they started of with none, and even if their initial strategy didn’t include actually taking them,…its relevant.
Which don’t? Point at the numbers.
I hate to break it to you mate, a large military camp without a name is still a large military camp.
Says who? Further more, the official Ashenvale wowpedia page links Astranaar as the capital. Silverwind outpost can not be of equal importance as it is a purely military position of strength. Further more, the Astraanar wowpedia page which you claimed that you read, calls Astranaar the largest settlement in the region. So once again, you are wrong. And you did not even bother reading.
Yet, here it is. A shocker.
Possibly so, but Astranaar is still listed as the capital.
I checked the relevant missions. On Maestra’s post, you kill a single night elf priestess, you do not take the outpost even if the mission is successful.
On The shrine of Aesinna, you kill a single Ancient. Further more, the quest makes it clear that there is no conventional Alliance military presence there, and I did not even count it among my numbered settlements.
Forest Song I will give you, so you have proven one night elf settlement being under a proper Horde attack.
No I did not. I said position of strength, not majority of army.
Not really. First of all, you did not tackle anything, you invented an interpretation fitting for your argument. Further more, the Elegy and a Good War have established that portals are not fitting for transporting large armies across great distances, or Stormwind would have arrived in time. We know that both factions’ navies are in shambles, yet somehow, magically, the Horde is capable of transporting most of its army to the Eastern Kingdoms, and that’s according to you.
According to the Good War and an Elegy, you are wrong, and I consider my claim that the majority of the Horde is not in the Eastern Kingdoms, proven, as well as my claim that the majority of the Alliance’s army isn’t in Ashenvale, also proven. Logistically impossible.
Could have fooled me. I disagree.
So, according to you, Saurfang is lying?
Lol. No, really. Lol. You are wrecking your own argument. Post-War of Thorns military engagement, the Horde holds Ashenvale. So, I will quote you on this:
Thank you Zarao for proving that then night elves now control a solid portion of Ashenvale despite controlling nothing at the start, even if their initial strategy is limited to guerilla warfare rather then holding outposts.
points at the numbers What does this even mean?
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Do you have a source that points there is some large military camp anywhere? Big enough to actually make a difference, that is.
Seldom do this kind of things get as blatantly ignored or sidelined if thats the case.
The fact that you are taking the intro of the area, which hasn’t been updated since Vanilla, and therefore ignores everything that happened with that area. Ranging from Wrath to BfA.
And still is referenced as such. Even if i’m willing t concede Astranaar as nominative capital, thats still something minor if the next source points at other place as being just as important for the area as it.
And normally, the big military outpost has more militar value than the civilian settlements. Given you are arguing about military progress, thats key.
Its size is also something irrelevant if the latest piece of lore argues that it was just as important as some other outpost.
Yes. Doesn’t mean its as important as it once was.
And you don’t know if any of the attacks on Horde outpost was succesful. Guerrilla tactics seldom bring down entire settlements when not accompanied by an actual invasion force.
Ironic.
No, thats according to A Good War, that has Sylvanas ordering Saurfang to move the army to defend UC inmediatly after burning the tree.
Thats according to the huge orc army that is invading Arathi, and the war effort that is being led by Rexxar into Stormsong.
In all these cases, the army is comprised by Kalimdor forces. And being commanded by Kalimdor generals such as Eitrigg, Rokhan, Rexxar, Baine, etc.
For your claim about the Horde army NOT leaving Kalimdor to work, its required to ignore the Arathi warfront, the War effort, the generals involved in the war campaign, and the hypothesis that somehow the Horde would choose to stay out of the most relevant war zones over the map or commit themselves to bring down relevant objectives such as Kul Tiras or Arathi.
And stay in Ashenvale doing nothing.
No. He is just saying that they secured the part of Ashenvale they wanted to control in order to further their plan about invading Teldrassil.
We know as a fact how that plan unfolded, which settlements they attacked, and the tactics they used in said area. Neither of these included invading or taking for themselves the whole place.
I was taking about the Horde there. I recomend you read that again.
I gave each epigraph of this war effort a number. Point at it.