We need dual spec

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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I cant wait till they ‘slap a 10k price tag’ on something so huge so we have ANOTHER reason for the largly 30yo+ audience that play this game to spend a couple of hours wages on RMT’ing it.

I know if i was sitting in a 3rd world place i certainly wouldn’t launder free game subscriptions from WoW tokens in retail to fresh free TBC accounts and have 10 bots farming at a cost of ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to me.

I mean who wants 50 euros a day for setting up a few WoW bots when you could have 7 euros a day for working your balls off in a sweat shop for 17 hours?

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I understand why people find the convenience of DS appealing, i myself am both an avid raider and pvper, and even tho i wanna keep raiding in tbc, i will focus my attention to pvp. Despite that tho, i dont think DS is a good idea.

The problem is whats been mentioned a few times, yet people seem to ignore it/cast aside as a none issue: meta gameplay.

Ive read a few times now from people, that they are confident DS wont force people into running 2 pve specs, for optimal raiding use, bc ppl dont care that much. Im afraid this is very far from the truth… It does not take more than to look at what happened in classic, to realise how wrong this is.

In classic a lot of us said, we were not gonna get world buffs and raidlog, we would not speed run, min max and what not. Yet after a short while, most decent guilds started building their roster, specs and what not in accordance to what the top guilds did - because they wanted to be wannabe tryhard. They wanted fast clear times, short raid days, efficiency etc. The meta mentality from top guilds trickled down to most end game clearing raiding guilds, so i think it is very naive to think that is not gonna happen in tbc.

Top guilds will definitely utilise DS for speed clears. Maybe everyone will be required to run 2 differen specs (ex. tank/healer), but more likely they will just run 2 different variants of the same spec, so they can swap on the go for trash/bosses, or boss/boss to whatever 2 specs gives the best results. Sure they can do that now by heartstoning back, respec and get summoned - but that would be very time costly, and probably not worth it in a world first race, or a speed clear attempt. In addition, you wont be paying 50g every time you respec if its through DS, making it even more likely to be mimicked by less hardcore guilds.

So i highly doubt any top guilds will be running 1 pvp and 1 pve spec. They will just respec to pvp after they raided in one of their specs. And as time progresses, more and more guilds will adopt this mentality as well, forcing you to pay for respecs to pvp anyway. It will be come meta, wether you care about it or not, and that is the problem for a lot of players. It might not matter to more casual guilds, but considering how many guilds label themselves as semi-hardcore+, it will impact a lot of guilds, just like world buffs did.

What happened in original tbc is not really a good reference. Back then we didnt know what was gonna be released, we didnt know the optimal strategies and boss values before the raid even released. This time we know everything on day 1. Just look at classic - vanilla sure as hell did not get min maxed to this level we have today, and people was not as vocal about it.
We dont go into this expansion blind like back then, we know what is gonna happen, and due to our modern days meta mentality, we will uptimize what can be uptimized. The only thing serious raiders care about these days are clear times and parses, even tho its a bit sad because the content is so easy.

So tldr: We dont go into tbc blind, we know whats gonna happen, and classic has proven that top guilds will uptimze what can be uptimized, creating new metas that the majority of serious raiding guilds will adopt - as such DS will create a terrible meta problem, and not really solve the problem it tries to fix.

Anyway thats my opinion, you are ofc welcome to disagree. But i hope what i said can start some reflections, and make people realise that meta gameplay is a bigger deal than what people want to believe.

2 Likes
206

Yes to dual spec.

Its just nice to be able to switch without having to look at your talents everytime…

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test test
post for warcraftlogs

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Then you don’t understand context or circumstances. Did we hear rants about boosting metas, warlock summoning chains and world buff stacking years ago? No, we didn’t.

Because, as I said in my previous post: WoTLK was a different game entirely. You didn’t have to change your spec to perform better because everything in your spec was baseline, and specs were vastly more balanced.

Again, the gold sink. 1k upfront would help sink a chunk of the gold from Classic, but then it reduces the amount of gold that will sink from mid-to-late TBC.

Not a problem for me personally, but in a year’s time I’m not going to be the one complaining that flasks are 500g each and I can’t afford to raid.

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Uh, yes we did. Vashj world first kill was done with full world buffs. Why do you think they were made obsolete in the first TBC patch? Same reason why consumables were revised in the same patch and their stacking was severely nerfed.

Then there are private servers. Why do you think people predicted world buffs in Classic would be a nuisance? That’s right. They were a nuisance on private servers, and everyone could see they’d be exactly that on Classic.

Horror stories from private servers were the reason people were asking for paladin seal changes and LW drum changes?

Not THAT much different, just further down the path that TBC was on.

Yes, you did. Who in their right mind would pick a tank-specced warrior for a dps spot instead of a fury warr with Titan’s Grip, for example?

Well, in TBC, DS would fit right in.

… which is probably way less than you think.

I don’t see people respeccing frequently, even the ones sitting on thousands of gold. Usually a mage respecs to frost if he wants to boost his alt or something, but for boosting others as a means of income, players tend to just level another mage.

Uh… what does that have to do with DS?

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This is exactly what I was saying earlier when I said you don’t understand context.

During ACTUAL Vanilla, people didn’t complain about world buffs, boosting, warlock summoning rings or any of the other stuff. Those things became common practise AFTER vanilla.

My point, Sardoc, was that just because people in WoTLK (an entirely different came to TBC and Vanilla) didn’t complain about something, doesn’t mean that said thing can’t become a problem.

Vastly different, it was during WoTLK that people started asking for Vanilla servers and some guilds even started doing “project 60” runs.

That’s not what I said, at all. Not even close.

Here’s a hint, “Warrior” isn’t a spec, it’s a class.

Yes, the gold sink is VERY low. But it’s one of few the game actually has. Repair bills are nothing, and mounts are a one-time purchase.

On top of that, there will be MORE gold coming into the game. You people are making such a big deal about respec costs, it’s 50g max. Do you know what that is? Like 3 daily quests. Oh no.

If gold isn’t drained from the game, there’s way more gold in the game. If there’s more gold in the game, items cost more. The price of consumables and materials is always whatever the highest bidder is willing to pay. If the highest bidder has a ton of gold, guess what? Everything is expensive.

When items cost more, the price of raiding goes up. Again, not my problem, I won’t be the person crying about the extortionate price of potions.

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I understand the point you’re trying to make, but was it a problem? I don’t think it was.

Now, let’s look at private servers to give you more of a fighting chance, because I’m feeling generous. Do that, and you’ll find… oh wait, still nothing. Which means the “coulda/woulda” did not happen.

I’m not making a big deal out of it. I’m just saying I don’t see lots of people respeccing, even the rich ones, so your argument about respeccing being a gold sink is rather blown out of proportions.

People tend to spend their money on other things rather than respecs. But given the option to blow away 1k for the convenience of not having to visit the class trainer + pay + put the HS on cooldown to get back to Outland, you’d find quite a few people willing to do that. I don’t see what’s to bad about that.

Again, I can see the point you’re trying to make, but it’s not relevant to DS. If you think respecs would make a big difference… oh, you sweet summer child.

Meanwhile, with the 1k upfront cost of DS, you could potentially make a million gold, if not more (and that’s per server), disappear from the game in the first week/month (depending on what the minimum level would be) if some of the rich people went for it on their chars.

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Personal perspective. I don’t think boosting, summoning or world buffs are a problem. The latter is a nuissance, sure. But not a problem.

No. Each and every private server started fresh and didn’t have millions of gold per realm pumped in by bots. Circumstances, Sardoc. Classic isn’t the same as private.

My argument isn’t that respeccing is a gold sink, my argument is that respeccing is one of the few gold sinks in the game. Repair costs are nothing and mounts are a one-time thing. This wouldn’t have been a problem if Blizzard did something about all the bots pumping more and more gold into the game 24/7.

Because 1k is sod all. If dual-spec was more expensive? Sure, I’m all for that. A way to just save your talents and swap to them for the 50g respec price without going back to Org/SW? Sure, I’d go for that too. 1k gold to never spend gold on talents again? No, save that for Wrath.

In one big sum.

If people want to play both aspects of the game (which I’m sure they do), they’d raid on average around 3 times a week, that would cost 6 respecs per week, totalling at 300g. That 1k drop is less than a month’s worth.

On top of that, we actually need Blizzard to define #somechanges first, because it’s currently a stupid stance. The changes they’ve proposed thus far are things to balance out the game, I.E paladin seals and drums nerfs. What they’ve proposed is changes, and not additions from other expansions.

Remember the slippery slope argument of old? How one simple change could lead us downhill to suddenly getting stupid things like paid character boosts?

Well look at what we have. Paid character boosts.

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begone, filthy retailer

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The “good change” answer comes basically from the lazy.

They don’t want to bother to do a few farm runs to get gold.

Getting 50g in Classic is pretty easy. Getting 50g in TBC will be much more easier.

Do you need to pvp every day? Does raids need to be every other day for maximum respec costs ? :slight_smile:

Idk… I always pvp with the spec I raid also. Or basically I keep 1 spec from start to end pretty much.
For TBC I think as a Hunter I might switch to Survival at some point… you kinda need start as a BM.

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I don’t think they’re problems either, though world buffs make people not play their characters in favour of logging out and saving buffs. That is the exact opposite of what an MMO is about. I certainly will not be crying when they’re gone.

Slow down a second. This is a topic about dual spec, so I don’t give a rat’s patootie about bots right now. One thing at a time please.

Private servers are fantastic for predicting what would happen on Blizz servers. Like it or not, we knew exactly what would happen with world buffs, how quickly the raids would be cleared, and so on. They help identify problems that perhaps weren’t spotted during a game’s lifespan, and unfortunately for your case, they do nothing to convince people that DS would be a problem.

It’s at least 3 times as much as all my respecs on all my chars in 14 years added together.

Again, for the umpteenth time, because you still don’t seem to get it. People don’t respec nearly enough as your math would have us believe. For whatever reason, they prefer to spend money on other things than class trainer, or simply save it. Crazy, I know, but true. But if they had the chance for DS, they might take it.

1k is the sweet spot that people would be willing to pay. It would easily help remove a million gold per server, probably even more from PvP servers, on day 1. I don’t see what you’re complaining about.

That’s something that probably came from the shareholders (to milk more money from some customers) rather than from player suggestions, don’t you think.

I’m generally against microtransactions like that, and I’m quite happy to join with others who don’t necessarily want this, to try reaching out to Blizz.

DS people are not asking for RMT stuff. Nice try.

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Yes we need a good game, so stop trying to turn it into retail and go back where you came from.

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217

Because respec is cheap anyways, it keeps players in a role so that there is good change that jerry the tank is still a tank next time you need him, it also invites social play - if you’re a healer and want to do stuff in the open world then bring a friend instead of just choosing another spec.

There is really no reason to have different specs when everyone can play everything at all times.

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It’s not a gold sink if it’s just a one-time thing, like buying DS.
Gold sink is something that comes constantly while playing the game like repairing your gear. In that sense, respeccing is a better gold sink that DS.

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Oh, but it is. And a much better one than respecs if few people respec.

Again. Add up all my respecs on all my chars in the last 14 years, and you probably won’t hit 300 gold. I just don’t do it, and I’m certainly not in the minority.

Meanwhile, give me DS feature, and that’s 2000 gold spent.

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Dual spec is instant respec. Instant things are for retail.
In classic i want visit my class trainer for time to time :smile:

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This doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying that you’d rather spend 2000g than 300g in respecs.

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Which just adds to what I’m saying. Just because you don’t have a problem with something, doesn’t mean that it isn’t a problem for someone else. That’s just life, you can’t go around saying “100% positives, no negatives to this addition”.

Every problem is interwined. The game wouldn’t need gold sinks if millions of gold wasn’t already pumped into the game. Dealing with the bots now is a waste of time because they’ve already done a year and a halfs worth of damage.

And should be taken with a grain of salt, because circumstances are different. Blizzard servers are supposed to be built to last, private servers aren’t. They die and people jump ship right to the next private server, which is why they all need to create something to entice people to jump to them.

A lot of private servers offer dual-specs. I’ve played one that offered people quad specs. Some private servers offer people transmogs and there’s even a recent WoTLK server that lets people pick which racials they want (regardless of faction) whilst still keeping the visuals of the race they play. I.E having a dwarf but with orc racials.

Because they don’t need to, because Classic (dispite it’s min/max community) was built around your class having meaning rather than your spec. I’m currently spec’d fury, I can PVP as fury, I can DPS as fury and I can tank as fury. I have no reason to respec.

In TBC, I’ll be playing arms PVE for raids. If I wanna PVP, I’ll either have to swap to arms PVP or get rekt. If I want to tank? Well, depending upon the difficulty of the content, I’ll have to respec.

If people aren’t willing to pay more, than they don’t want it enough.

That’s not what I said. I’ll repeat and re-iterate for you. #Somechanges leads to “why can we have X but not Y?”

You’ve gotten into arguments with other people on this topic where they’ve sarcastically mentioned LFR, Pet Battles, Transmog and whatever other features retail has. Why can you say “DS has no downsides!” but then say “Those don’t belong in Legacy content!”?

Transmog does no damage to the game, transmog works as a great gold sink (seriously, I’ve dumped tens of thousands of gold since Transmog became a thing) and transmog also means your past accomplishments aren’t meaningless.

It’s not really about gold, but rather about the inconvenience of going back to a major city and replacing all of your talent points every time you want to swap specs.

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Spending an extra 1700g rather than changing your spec 6 times?