You think you do, but you dont.
Runescape and wow in its core are different games with different players. It will never work.
So because you donât get / enjoy this aspect of the game you want to remove it.
I donât get PVP, itâs the same folk fighting each other until some arbitary number is reached. meh. not fun. But Iâm not saying it should be removed.
Well first nobody is ONLY doing old content. This is a hobby / sideline in the game.
Secondly our subs are worth as much you anybody elses. Remove our subs and the game earns a lot less money. Money which is used to make your raids. I would bet that more players farm old dungeons and raid than progress mythic raids. They had to add LFR in order to justify they expense of developing raids for such a small amount of players.
Thirdly we are using old conntent that would be dead without us. Although Timewalking does keep some of that content relavant.
Were this content to be made Endgame full time then the playerbase would be spread over too many raids and dungeons at one time. Timewalking focuses the grouping into certains dungeons and raids.
Why does it matter to you that I like to explore old dungeons and raid and figure out how to solo them? Doing dungeons with randoms is just a matter of running to try and keep up with some tank and hoping you donât get lost.
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Iâve never bought anything from the shop and I wonât.
I enjoy running the old dungeons and raids so I can actually see them. With groups itâs just running with the group in the hopes of not getting lost.
I did Nighthold a bunch of times last year for the DK and Shammy sets, got a mount of GulDan as I did that. I enjoyed that, I could see the raid. Back in Legion I did it on LFR but I kept getting lost trying to follow the group and didnât really get a sense of the raid. Grouped content in the current era of wow is just GOGOGO which is really not fun.
I also enjoy trying to do the achievements and seeing if they can be soloed, some I need help with and get a friend to help out.
Although the borked scaling of BFA is making this tougher than it ought to be.
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No, but rather because the things I went on to write which you have entirely ignored and do not address below.
If you wish to have a discussion please make the effort to address the things I write to you.
And Iâm not sure that would change regardless, although I think for some players it might.
Thatâs not necessarily the case. Firstly I donât believe itâs actually going to make you quit, but assuming it does - what comes in its place can be anything from more solid levelling with 5-man raids as part of it or tons of old relevant content for players to play without having the trouble of everything being not just easy, but downright 1-shotted. I could certainly find myself doing WotLK quests on this toon if it didnât involve literally 1-shotting everything. Itâs too boring; I want to fight, not just fly from place to place.
So we must weigh the number of subscriptions gained exclusively from 1-shotting old raids vs. the amount that would be gained from having relevant old content.
In fact, since this old content is only available to players who have already played through the standard leveling experience I think it should be some of the hardest leveling you can do. Further, I think the content patches of those expansions serve a purpose, too. Iâd love to do Argus again, for example, but itâs gotta put up a fight - and for as long as you want to 1-shot everything there and 1-shot Antorus I canât really have that. Even if I had a setting to turn it off, path of least resistance just tells me that I shouldnât and I wonât be able to find anyone else.
Would it though? I think itâs dead because of you. For example, Elder Scrolls Online takes the approach Iâm laying out and none of the old raids are dead. Despite the current expansion being what it is, if you want to play Morrowind and Clockwork City, thatâs totally something you can do. People are still playing it and it still rewards decent gear.
Oh, I donât think it should be all turned into end-game raids. I never said it should. Although it is in other MMOâs and itâs still working fine, so idk.
Rows 2, 3 and 4. (Itâs also worth pointing-out that row 3 wan entirely made-up of talents that would return some baseline druid abilities back to the player, after being taken away for absolutely god knows what mind-boggling reason.)
That number is entirely wrong. I know it, you know it, that old grandma who lives across the street and has only heard of WoW in passing knows it. Youâre not doing yourself any favors with hyperbole.
I see people making this point from time to time and Iâm absolutely baffled by it every time. Those âââboringâââ talents were what made the whole system work in the first place. The talent trees would not work without them.
Let me tell you what I mean. In modern WoW, if you play a DK and you decide you want to be a tank, you have the following options: Blood. Blood is the only DK spec that can be tank. You pick it, and the game makes you a tank before you even spend your first talent.
Now letâs examine the same situation in WoTLK. You, as a WoTLK DK player, decide you want to be a tank. Now here are your options for tank specs: Blood, Frost, Unholy, Blood-Frost hybrid, Blood-Unholy Hybrid, Frost-Unholy hybrid. Now, some of these are obviously better options than others, but they are all absolutely playable and valid. (This point alone is enough to already make the old system vastly superior to what we have now, but thatâs not the point right now.)
Now, why is it possible to tank in any spec in WoTLK? Itâs because in WoTLK, to be a tank you have to spend talent points into talents that make you a tank. The trick is, that all the talents that make someone a tank are all high up in the talent trees, making them accessible to any and all specs. These are all the âââboringâââ 1% dodge/point talents that you complain about. The more specific talents that give specs âflavorâ are further down the trees.
I like to use DK as an example, because by letting the player to be a tank or a DPS in any of the three specs (+ hybrid builds), I think it was the best-designed tree in the gameâs history. That said, it was a similar story with other classes as well. Take Warrior for example. Today, people have been asking for sort of a âtemplarâ spec, one that would be focused around playing with a one-hander and shield. Well, such a build was entirely possible in Vanilla-WoTLK. If a player wanted to play a more âDPS-orientedâ prot spec, they absolutely had the option to do so by simply not picking the âââboringâââ 5% armor/point tanking talents and investing them into the âââboringâââ 1% crit/point talents instead. While such a spec didnât deal as much damage as an Arms/Fury Warrior might, this spec boasted a much better control, making it great for PvP.
For PvP Resto Druid players, it used to be quite popular to play a somewhat more of an agressive build, where they sacrificed some talents in the Restoration tree in favor of some DPS talents from the Balance tree. For such players, the 0.1s/point reduction of cast time on Wrath made a world of a difference.
I could go on listing examples here but I think anyone who made it this far gets it by now. You are absolutely allowed to dislike those talents if you want, but the truth is the old talent tree system was absolutely fantastic in part thanks to such talents, not despite them.
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Disagree, I canât keep just 2 characters on the top of the gear curve, and they donât really do any world quests or renown grinds. Thereâs loads and loads of scope for alts!
Idk, Iâve been enjoying experimenting a bit, asking whether I could use better CC for this group or whether theyâd benefit more from some movement speed/avoidance. The trees are a bit over complicated, and there are some dead branches (see removal of Bonedust brew for Mistweavers in 10.0.5), but most of the time I can imagine reasons to use the talents on offer.
I⌠do not like the current professions.
I like the idea of them. I do not like how they were executed. I trusted Blizzard to actually ensure that whichever specialisation you picked first, it would have reasonable access to skill ups and sellable commodities.
My trust was very misplaced and it kind of feels like I should never have expected them to be done very well.
Some specialisations get hard stuck in the mid 60s, unable to unlock another tab, and unable to skill up without crafting Spark gear - which nobody will ask them to do because theyâre low skilled and wonât do good quality work. Sometimes there are alternatives hidden away at high renown (e.g. 15 with the expedition for a tailoring recipe that will un-stick you). Thereâs really no excuse for this.
Other professions just donât really give you anything good (engineering res tinker just isnât reliable even at max quality, alchemy canât seem to produce rank 3 phials without procs) and ultimately make you massively regret any points you spent without first reading guides and fully researching the âendgameâ of the profession. It doesnât help that tooltips are usually in end-of-tree terms, which mean nothing to us at the point of unlock.
Then we have gathering, with the refinement/smelting tree allowing us to combine lower rank materials to make higher tier⌠Which is pointless since after a while, you just gather rank 3 directly. Nobody should ever invest in the smelting tree. Sorry if itâs too late for people reading this. It was too late for me too.
TLDR, I did want better professions, but I didnât want trap choices, dead ends, and a necessity for deep research before investing my first knowledge point. Getting stuck with bad choices and having no way out except wait 3 months is not pleasant. Cue flashbacks to Covenants being âpick one foreverââŚ
Youâve build up your entire argumentation around one single class that had multiple viable tank specs. PvP may have allowed for some hybrid specs but other than that PvE was exactly the same. People just went with the best performing spec they got off some website.
no, i dont know it.
all i know is i experienced it myself many many times the reaction of a guild or raids in general with the âwrong talentsâ. and so have most players who took raided weekly.
customization ? HUH dont make me laugh
Uhhh⌠did you read my comment? Like, at all? I literally mentioned 3 different classes. I couldâve easily mentioned more, but Iâm not about to explore what the upper character limit of WoW forums is.
So some people let a 3rd party website play the game for them. So what? How does that suddenly, in any way, shape or form take away from the customization and options the system allowed for? Like I said in my original comment - if someone simply copies talents and doesnât spend a second more thinking about it, then to that player it doesnât matter in the slightest what the talent system is. The system obviously isnât intended for such players, no matter which iteration it is. I am, obviously, (or so I thought, but oh well) speaking from the point of view of someone who likes to play the game their way. For such kind of player, the Vanilla-WoTLK system was the best there ever was.
You know what? I believe it. Judging by your comments, you probably picked whichever talents bloody Icy Veins told you to pick and never opened the talent panel again so how could you possibly know.
So you have experienced idiots in online gaming. In other news, thereâs fish in the ocean. Why should I, you, or anyone give a damn what other people think? I play the game the way I want to play it and anyone else be damned.
I swear, Icy Veins is why Frost Mage isnât doing well (ironically 
) - the spec and build for M+ is completely wrong. You can do substantially more AoE DPS, and you also should change the build ever so slightly per week. In fairness though the best build changed a lot due to all the hotfixes due to it being remarkably junk in the beginning.
The build is close to right, but no cigar.
It was also wrong for for fire last expansion.
Usually you can go to raider.io and copy their builds, but you usually have to think a bit for yourself, too. Their build may be optimised for a different dungeon out it may be a PvP spec on the armory, etc.
Frankly once you get to a certain point, and that point isnât that high up, it pays to think about your build yourself.
EDIT: Look at this: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/32#class=DPS&sample=1
See how Fire has both a lower average but a higher maximum than arcane? Someone somewhere just figured something out, and that something is probably the best mage spec. So whatever fire mages were doing up until now was wrong - or the recent buff had a larger than expected impact. Maybe a breakpoint was reached. Iâll have to check it out, but I have to be careful. Perhaps whatâs making it good is something with set bonuses or a trinket etc. - I can easily make a mistake by switching.
Itâs not so simple. And it shouldnât be. But it appears thereâs decent builds for all 3 specs now - how about that? Thatâs the power of talents - people figuring stuff out. And as they figure it out the old builds arenât getting worse, so if they were any good to begin with theyâre still good, meaning weâve now got huge build variety, so go have fun with it!
Wow⌠what an assumption. I interact a lot with others when I farm old raids. Now, I donât do this weekly, but I have periods I do it and I am either on voice or talking with friends in guildchat or battlenet. Sometimes I also do them with others.
Besides, anyone doing anything I am not, is by this logic useless to the game.
No you donât. Your character is literally gone. Itâs just gone - nobody can see it anywhere.
Whichever ways you interact with others is purely in the chatbox, nothing else. Itâs not an assumption, itâs a logical assertion like 2+2=4.
EDIT: And before you say âchatbox!=offlineâ - not true. Guild chat and all whisper systems are available offline on your phone.
Read this again, and think of why I told you this;
But thatâs BS. Going into Valdrakken for example and seeing it full of people is itself an enjoyable experience regardless of what theyâre doing. So is encountering someone in the world whoâs about to die and need a little help as you swoop down to gather a herbing node. This is an MMO - the more you embrace it there more fun youâll have.
If you do not like this aspect you might as well play Skyrim or Elden Ring or w/e.
Everyone in instances or in other zones are invisible to me, therefore useless by your logic.
Garrisons are useless, a game feature. Pet battles, proving grounds, mage tower, solo scenarios which we have many of during questlines. By your logic they are useless to the game.
I am well aware of what an MMO is. Itâs why I play it. I donât do single player games unless I have someone to interact with.
MMO does not mean you cannot do anything on your own.
Yes, but not to one another. Unless theyâre alone of course, vis-a-vis.
Players are also âuselessâ to you in the open world if you canât directly see them - though of course other people might see them, so they are objectively doing something for someone to make the game an MMO.
Quite right. Itâs all junk. Mage Tower, fortunately, is a brief experience just there to provide a challenge. Itâs a little bit of fun, but if you replace the entire game with Mage Towers youâll ruin it. Garrisons in particular nearly killed the game.
No, but it does mean you should be in a shared space.
Here is the key sentence though. Itâs a little bit of fun for people to sometimes go into a sandbox and do something alone sometimes. That doesnât mean they never play with others or arenât in the game world. There is no reason ro remove this content, or not do it if you enjoy it.
My only complaint now is that thereâs not enough primal chaos on my alts and too much on my main.
Would like to see more primal chaos from open world or put it on BOA
I donât do dungeons on my alt because its my alt
Itâs so different though. Mage Tower is like once, 1-2 hours, and then itâs over. This one-shotting old raids thing is usually many, many hours every week to get the reward.
But yeah, I think the Mage Tower is only fine because itâs so little. A little scratch wonât kill the beast, but one-shotting old raids cuts quite a bit deeper.
But I have different reasons to believing itâs a problem, too. Already mentioned those.
Why exactly does this bother you?
Quite honestly, I do not understand your reasoning so far, but we seem to have a very different opinion on the subject. Quite likely, neither one of us can convince the other of it being a problem or not. You are free to elaborate more why this is a problem, if you want.