Also Malfurion does. But he was still so powerful that he could wipe whole armys.
Most of the CC weren’t present or got involved lol.
Do you really think the CC would let the Horde just stroll through Felwood to flank the Night Elves and sit back doing nothing if they were involved?
Beyond the odd character the CC has done nothing.
1 Like
An ‘evil’ or morally reprehensible mindset that didn’t hamper nor handicap their Light powers while doing what they thought was right.
Again, Paladins work on faith, not morals. That’s the point of having evil Paladins and evil Light users.
Blood Knights (and Horde paladins for that matter), can have all their powers and the Light at their side for as long as their mindset or standpoint considers their actions as just or right.
And this depends on a more social/cultural level, that often defines the moral boundaries and who they can/would follow doing so.
1 Like
Except when it did, which did indeed happen. Further more, you did not answer my argumentation.
As trash-mobs and antagonistic factions in special circumstances.
Except this would ignore their entire development.
Lady Liadrin says: My brothers and sisters, words cannot describe what I felt upon seeing the Sunwell rekindled.
Lady Liadrin says: In that moment, the Light revealed to me the truth of the terrible things I had done.
Lady Liadrin says: Our people had walked a dark path and mine was among the darkest of them all.
Lady Liadrin says: But the Light showed me that I was not lost. It helped me to find the strength to survive in spite of all that had happened and all the evil I had wrought.
Lady Liadrin says: It is a strength that we sin’dorei all share. It is a strength we will need to free ourselves of the addiction ravaging our people.
Lady Liadrin says: It will be the most difficult battle we have ever faced, but our resolve and the power of the Sunwell will sustain us until we have been restored to our greatness.
Blood Elf Pilgrim says: Well said, my lady. We sin’dorei will be free and we shall be great again!
Lady Liadrin says: Great, brothers, now that we have forgiven ourselves, go burn those night elf civilians to the ground, then clap!
2 Likes
Antagonistic factions are delimited by the standpoint of playable ones. Alliance paladins are often Horde antagonists. And vice versa.
Special circumstances? We’ve had paladins killing each other for a while now.
Except when the subject started doubting himself or losing his faith in himself or in the Light as a whole.
Not counting times when external sources cur said connection artificially.
How does any of that go against the obvious premise about Paladins working on the faith or righteousness with which they label their own acts, rather than the objective (or subjective, when seen from another race point of view) moral consequences of their actions?.
1 Like
Both fighting for relatively normal things. A Horde paladin fighting in Cataclysm for the Survival of the Horde has a point. An Alliance paladin fighting to defend the innocents has a point.
Hell, a blood elf paladin fighting now under the impression that the Alliance will slaughter innocents in vengeance has a point.
But a paladin saying that this is alright? This as in, burning Civilians and raising corpses? No paladin can say that and be a paladin.
My point is that drastic crimes make one question their own participation and devotion.
Because you need to strip the obvious premise of every nuance and circumstance to force it to work.
The Scarlet Crusade and the Blood Knights are not the same. And the fact that you need to seek justification in one of the most twisted Light Wielding organizations should speak volumes of exactly what we are debating.
Like, are we literally at the level of “Scarlet Crusade did it, so its fine?”
2 Likes
More like: “The Scarlet Crusade manages to wield the Light while doing morally reprehensible acts. So Light usage isn’t contingent to morals”
And once you remove the moral barrier, any light wielding soldier a.k.a. Paladin, is free to tag along the most despicable person imaginable while they carry out whatever they deem fit to further their goals.
For as long as said soldier considers any action as working in their own favour, or the one of the faction/race they belong to.
Horde paladins aren’t conventional White Knights that find themselves hampered by a strict moral code. The closest you’d have to those, are the Sunwalkers.
And they’d oppose Sylvanas actions more out of cultural differences, rather than because of their own particular condition as “Paladins”.
Blood Knights can find themselves tagging along Sylvanas for as long as they consider her goals to be aligned with theirs. Including being vindicative, ruthless and merciless with the ones that oppose them.
If Lorashel distant cousin of Lorash considers that the Light will make the ones that wronged his people pay for their past actions, he’ll obviously be able to carry out whatever he deems fit. With unwavering faith and command over the Light.
As the Scarlets did with their “equally excessive and nasty” approach regarding nonhumans.
1 Like
There is more nuance then that, sorry. Much more.
But you can not remove the moral barrier. The moral barrier is there. It is not “no moral, free game” its “doing what I believe is right.”
Actually, the blood elves picked up Light worship from humanity and added another dose with the draenei. They can tag alongside Sylvanas, no big deal, but point is that such individuals are either:
- Bitter to the point of evil.
- Delusional.
And either quality being dominant within the order is ignoring every piece of development blood elves received since Burning Crusade.
Lorashel can be evil and mean, but Lorashel would have to ignore the entire redemption arc the blood knights had.
What blood knight will ask for forgiveness for abusing a naaru while killing civilians and raising corpses?
1 Like
Oh no. Another war of Araphant and Zarao started again. How do you guys make that every time?
3 Likes
What someone feels it’s ‘right’ may be in many cases seen as wrong from other person’s point of view.
Sometimes doing the ‘right’ thing, means doing or allowing ‘wrong’ things to happen.
You also seem to be arguing about the existence of an artificial ‘moral barrier’, just as self imposed as any soldier code of conduct from a reference that points at elves ridding themselves from Fel and Naaru mistreatment.
But the previous portrayal wasn’t left behind after said interaction.
Lorash isn’t the only one displaying open animosity and pettiness towards Night elves.
Liadrin had a similar negative portrayal for Night elves in the Nightborne intro.
Would they be willing to take it to the point of supporting burning a civilian settlement? It varies depending on the individual I guess.
But it isn’t far fetched to assume that best case scenario they could be willing to take it as a necessary evil. If not even ‘just’ retribution for kicking them all to die in the woods a few centuries ago.
They just need to have the faith or feel like they are doing the right thing, and they are good to go.
And that doesn’t mean everything should be fine and dandy.
It just means that they can tag along despicable people and do what from others point of view is a whole list of wrongdoings, with an unwavering command over the Light.
For as long as they consider this to be for the greater good (their greater good).
1 Like
And there’s the moral relativism crap. Like, we aren’t debating the merrits of social systems. We are debating burning civilians.
Crap, crap, more crap. At this point, I am bowing out. I said what I had to say and I will leave it here.
When dealing with a literal ‘relativist’ force that only demands you feel that you are doing the right thing for you to be able to wield it, this is quite relevant.
Moral qualms don’t make a Paladin. A Paladin is defined by his faith in the Light.
Races can have moral qualms about certain stuff. On principle, you can position yourself against Sylvanas.
You don’t need to be a Paladin for that.
Nor are these Horde Paladins obliged to oppose Sylvanas just because they are such.
Relativism, as cliched as the term is, certainly applies to the Paladin condition and the Light usage, as we have literal villains that do a whole set of wrong deeds using it.
More like: “The Scarlet Crusade manages to wield the Light while doing morally reprehensible acts. So Light usage isn’t contingent to morals”
No that is not how the Scarlet Crusade worked at all. The reason that the Scarlets retained their light power is not just they believed what they were doing was right (that alone is not enough). The reason they kept their power was because of the greater good. They were fighting a war against pure evil (the Scourge) and while Scarlets have done SOME bad things. It was nowhere near as bad as the game made it out to be. Brann Bronzebeard visted Tyrs hand twice. The average Scarlet Crusader didn’t have the choice to just pick up and walk away.
If they had been fighting Tauren for example…none of them would be wielding the light.
Doing bad things has NOTHING to do with being able to wield the light. Stop this nonsense already. Or a greater good of justice or whatever you like to call it. It’s faith. That’s all that is needed to becoming access to the light.
3 Likes
Speak for yourself, not all Paladins are the same as Humans. We Blood Knights did some shady stuff in the past.
At the end of the day the light serves those who believe their cause is just. The Blood Elves have always put their people before anything else, so it makes sense considering that losing to the Alliance would at the very least put the Sunwell at risk with their Void Elves.
If Sylvanas becomes a threat to Quel’thalas, then the Blood Elves and their Blood Knights will turn on her in a heartbeat.
They’re not. They just aren’t ready to openly oppose her yet (Or are making preparations to).
2 Likes
The Core Book of dark faction was already noted as NOT canon by Blizzard, lust like all the other older source books. Which is were Brann tells about him visiting Tyrs hand.
1 Like
They’ve fought the Tauren…
They’ve fought pretty much everyone at this point, and the logic used has been always the same mixture of hatemongering racism and xenophobic speech.
I mean. there are all sorts of torturers within the Scarlet ranks.
There really isn’t much to debate about them. They are simply bad people.
Antagonistic to both factions, but with several prominent Light users amongst them.
1 Like
Baine sits in jail and Saurfang keeps moping in his swamp. They are pretty much not part of the current plot until 8.2 says something else. But blind followers? Only the other Forsaken(And Geya’rah) have so far no concerns about Sylvanas.
They’ve fought the Tauren…
Ah yes you must be refering to when the Scarlets fought the Tauren…ugh wait what?
They’ve fought pretty much everyone at this point, and the logic used has been always the same mixture of hatemongering racism and xenophobic speech.
I mean. there are all sorts of torturers within the Scarlet ranks.
Wow game mechanics much? There are NO tauren in the plaguelands…most Scarlet Crusaders would never even have seen a Tauren…you know all the orcs, tauren, night elves and gnomes running around the plaguelands?..yeah they aren’t there. The plot is very different to the game mechanics.
There really isn’t much to debate about them. They are simply bad people.
/facepalm
Antagonistic to both factions, but with several prominent Light users amongst them
No, there really isn’t.
Can someone explain to me why Arthas was cut off from the Light exactly? And why he is the only case of this happening and not anyone else?