What would be needed for your faction surrender to be acceptable?

Lore Story
81

So no tharamor compairison.

You are avoiding the question.
What did the alliance ever destroy that belong to the horde?
You cant answer that because the alliance never gets to destroy anything.

From memory:
In cata the night elves where on the verge of defeat until you save there behinds.
In the barrens you had to stop the orcs from destroying your beach base.
Val’Sharah is all about the night elves losing.
Malfurion is defeated by a mere shade of xavius, ysadra an ancient ally of the night elf get’s turned evil, the tear of elune corrupted and we needed a freaking goddess to just fix the tears.
In the war of thorne the horde walks over the night elves like they arent even there.
And no the books do not justify the poor show in game.
Tyranda abbadons her people and malfurion the freaking dimigod archdruid cant heal a minnor axe wound and return to combat.
During the seige of undercity the alliance was forced to retreat until jaina ex machina saved us.
And during daz’lor the alliance had to send a suiced sqaud just to be able to kill king i-am-the-only-reason-we-arent-officaly-horde.

Every single alliance “victory” comes at great cost.

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82

I vouch for this, I was there. We had several threads on our forums, saw a crapload of people unsub.

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83

Regardless of how underwhelming the consequences are, there is certainly a trend to have an automatic drawback with each victory the Horde achieves. Seldom are they shown as something they are to be proud of.

Whereas the Alliance often feels vindicated in their actions, even if their morals render them incapable of following through, the Horde is often loaded with a bunch of “wins” that automatically translate into moral defeats that sour whatever good they could have gotten out of them. To the point they often derive into material loss that steals whatever good could be salvaged from them.

Best examples showcasing the above, would be Teldrassil and UC for each faction respectively.

Both are balanced in its “misery”.

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84

Surrender ?
Haha no…
Never Surrender.
There must be no peace until the last drop of blood has been spilled.

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85

I was never mad at the alliance for fire bombing Taurajo since the emotional quests made up for it with the ongoing stalemate. I was mad at Baine, today even still, for shrugging it off like it ain’t a problem. Even forcing his own Tauren into exile. Do you actually believe that tyrande or Anduin would do the same thing to their subjects when they are out for revenge? Thought so.

The alliance is about building, peace and culture. Blizzard went hyperbole with that theme for some time by now.

The burned path of lands between the Tirisfal coast and UC seem not so dandy anymore.

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86

Azshara zone.
Given away territory after you “won” to the same people that where glady following garrosh citynuker until he turned on them seem to be alot worse then:
Exile for not agree with your leader.
Also andiun and tyranda would do it for the same reason baine did.
To keep the peace.
They havent so far because unlike the horde the alliance doesnt get to disagree with there leaders bad desisions.

We agree on this.

Are there any quests where i can experiance this happening first hand?

87

Gotta agree with Aditu most of all in this entire thread.

If peeps really want the feeling of this so-called Blizzard-Biased faction, I say they should feel free to reroll and join in for the ride. If they like it like this, they can stay. No biggie.

The problem is already identified that the Alliance won’t change, so… what’s more demanding of writers and demeaning of the apparently-biased faction going to do?

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88

I don’t think there’s a chance of there ever being true peace, but I would like to see there be a lot of border shifts and world revamps as the war sort of simmers down to being over resources rather than being full on invasions again:

  • Gilneas returns to the Alliance.
  • Silverpine becomes a contested area once more, Pyrewood rebuilt and joining Ambermill as Alliance settlements in the region, parts of the region begin to return to how they used to look before the Forsaken took total control. The Sepulcher grows larger to facilitate more Forsaken forces, though most Forsaken camps aside from the rear guard are destroyed. The rear guard becomes a Horde port.
  • Hillsbrad is buy and large retaken. Southshore is recovered and the village of Hillsbrad is rebuilt, Forsaken control of the region is reduced to Tarren Mill and Durnholde Keep, with the Alterac Mountains/Fenris Isle becoming the Forsakens main strongholds in Lordaeron.
  • In Arathi Stromgarde is retaken and the Horde is pushed back to Hammerfall. Up in the Hinterlands the Zandalari Empire has helped the Horde gain more ground on the Wildhammers, the Coast of the Twilight Highlands remains contested but the Wetlands is totally secured by the Alliance and Menethil/Loch Modan are repaired after being left ruined by the Cataclysm.
  • In the South the Zandalari Empire have helped the Horde create almost total dominance over Northern Stranglethorn, the Alliance are now sending more forces to the border of Duskwood but Horde raids are only adding to the problems of the villagers of Darkshire who still recover from the betrayal of the Night Watch.

In Kalimdor -

  • Teldrassil remains a smoking ruin, if there are quests they mainly concern retrieving lost things from the charred forests as the Night Elves desperately try to bring the world tree back to life. Darkshore lies in ruins. Auberdine is the last stronghold of the Alliance there as the Goblins continue to move in and harvest the region of resources and archaeological finds.
  • The Night Elves have moved back to their ancestral home of Hyjal, with the help of the Draenei they have built a new city upon Mount Hyjal and stage a guerrilla war with the help of the Furbolg, successfully taking back half of Ashenvale and claiming near dominance over Winterspring.
  • The Horde have reconsolidated their control over most of Kalimdor. Talendris Point is now a Goblin outpost and an iron rail moves through Azshara, Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Desolace and Feralas, carrying troops and supplies effectively through those regions and shipping precious materials from Silithus back to Orgrimmar.
89

Sylvanas dead and blizz hire a better writing team.

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90

so the alliance earned only destroyed places and the horde gained Alliance Territorys…wow…XD

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91

Blizzard should update the world ingame to the point it no longer showed the cataclysm aftermath in such an active way.
But should also balance zones to create an equitable gaming experience for both sides. Even if that includes leaving Alliance lands conquered definetly or contested with the Horde.

What we have in Classic is simply unbalanced and needed to be fixed.

92

Places like Stromgarde have been contested for a long time, whilst the Horde are evidently pushed back in the Eastern Kingdoms in my ideas, the Night Elves have made good gains in regaining most of Ashenvale as well as Hyjal and Winterspring. It’s a matter of define ‘destroyed’.

I’d probably also include a lot of restoration of Alliance territory in Stonetalon as well as Feralas to show how the Night Elves have made their comeback. Regaining Gilneas is also a massive boon seen as it’s an entire kingdom in lore.

93

When it comes to balance, the Horde now has more areas than the Alliance, so please.

How would I do it?

-dark shore
-Eshental
-Mt. Hyjal
-winter jump
-Felwood
-Moonglade

is completely recaptured by the night elves. Teldrassil cannot be restored, it is not possible. It therefore remains as a memorial to remember the War of Thorns for all eternity. Also, the druids erect a huge border wall reminiscent of Ahn’Qirai, which closes the eastern border to the wasteland.

Stonetalon has regained a split frontier function: The northwestern part of Stonetalon goes to the night elves, while the far southeastern part goes to the Horde.

Desolace continues to function as a neutral place under the leadership of the Circle, so it is not officially owned by either the Horde or the Alliance. The Circle forbids any construction of fortresses there.

Feralas would also be divided. The natural boundary is Diremaul. Everything east of it is Horde territory, everything west of it is Alliance territory.

The Alliance leaves the southern barrens, and retreats into the night elves’ areas in exchange for leaving any hordetroops from Arathi and Gilneas.

The Horde opens up the Un’Goro Jungle
The Horde ala Gorgrond builds a huge railway line along their empire from Orgrimmar down to Un’Goro.

Silithus and the outgoing Azerith are banned for all time by a blocking agreement between the Horde and the Alliance.

Silver Forest is repaired by the undead, the tomb serves as a new seat until Stratholme is conquered. (To make it the capital of the forsaken-state)

Even undercity will never be rid of the plague, what is above ground is only a fraction of the actual damage in the lower area. The explosion made the whole structure unstable.

Sylvanas will be brought before a court of law
Saurfang will be brought before a court of law
Nathanos will be brought before a court of law

However, this time the judge, plaintiff and defender will not be a pandare or the four lofty ones, nor will the alliance. The Horde will accuse and judge itself.

Anduin loses his seat as High King to Jarod Shadowsong, who will lead the Alliance’s military forces.

The Alliance reforms and reinstates the Alliance Council.

Calia Menethil will act as ambassador between the undead Forsaken and the living humans.

Last: The Alliance will officially abandon any territorial claim over the kingdom of Lordaeron as long as the Forsaken remain within their new borders and do not attempt to expand.

94

Hang on, am I missing the point here, I thought the question was “What would be needed for your faction surrender to be acceptable?” WHy am I seeing all these “Sylvanas’s head on a spear!” “Horde being pushed out of all of North Kalimdor”

You know that’s not how a Surrender works, right? I mean the question is what would be needed for -your- faction to be the one surrendering. That doesn’t mean you get to set the terms! That means the Other Faction is the one setting the terms, I mean that is precisely what a surrender is! All of those people going “Kill all the Horde in Northern Kalimdor” or “Sylvanas’ head on a silver platter” may have misunderstood the question, as if you were in a position where you were surrendering, and you made those demands of the people you were surrendering -to- then you’re pretty much saying “Annihilate us because we are insanely unreasonable”, and any right minded faction would go “Umm, that’s not how Surrender works” and probably wipe you out as a menace to the world, and perhaps as a kindness, to your gene pool.

So, I’ll answer it two ways “What would be needed for the Sin’dorei surrender to be acceptable?”

A retreat to pre-war borders, normalisation of diplomatic proceedings, trade routes, amnesty on crimes committed by Sin’dorei or by Alliance. Not an Alliance, but a non-aggression pact.

“WHat would be needed for a Horde Surrender to be acceptable?”

That’s much trickier. The Alliance would likely accept some races of the Horde surrendering, the Huojin, Sin’dorei, Tauren, Nightborne, Highmountain Tauren-Possibly- the Goblins (after all, there are Alliance Goblins, including the second in command of SI:7), and at a pinch, the Trolls. I don’t think they’d accept it from the Orcs, and the Forsaken. There is too much bad blood. It really depends who was the ruler at the time. Thrall may be able to negotiate a Surrender, Sylvanas could not. The Alliance would not negotiate with Sylvanas, even from a position of strength, but they likely would with someone like Thrall, Baine or Lor’themar.

At that point it kind of becomes, as these things do, a ‘Vae Victis’ situation. “Woe to the Conquered” The matter essentially is out of the hands of the defeated party, who can but accept the terms the winner imposes, or die.

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95

Argent Crusade/Silver Hand/Argent dawn already have it under their control. But I can see them giving the Northern part of the EPL to non-hostile Forsaken. There is nice river and hill/mountain pass there which can serve as the official border. Also with them being so close they can be easily be kept an eye on. Tyr’s Hand, Light’s Hope and Heartglen basicly surround it.

96

No, it does not.
Going only with the “Old continent”:

-Kalimdor: Horde 8 zones, Alliance 6. The rest contested.
-EK: Horde 6 zones, Alliance 15. The rest contested.

It was but a cursory glance at Wowhead, but overall the Alliance remains with quite a presence.

97

Stop cursory glancing, that page has starting areas and the Deeprun tram put in as separate zones.

The Alliance has 7 zones, if one doesn’t count Gilneas. Just counted it in-game.

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98

Didn’t really bother reading them all, as the ratio was evident. Just counted the faction symbols:
https://www.wowhead.com/kalimdor#0+4+7
https://www.wowhead.com/eastern-kingdoms#0+4+7

Discounting them doesn’t change the balance nor tilt it to either side to the point it validates the claim that the Horde “has more areas than the Alliance”.

Anyway, this is how the situation is as of now ingame:

EK
Alliance
Redridge Mountains
Duskwood
Westfall
Loch Modan
Wetlands
Dun Morogh
Elwynn Forest
Gilneas

Horde
Hillsbrad
Tirisfal
Ghostlands
Silverpine
Eversong Woods

KALIMDOR
Alliance
Darkshore
Teldrassil
Azuremyst Isle
Bloodmyst Isle

Horde
N. Barrens
Mulgore
Durotar
Azshara
Echo Isles

Still don’t see it. It remains practically the same once you address collectively the areas that are within wider territories.

In short, Cataclysm did balance the zones (as well as addressing the obvious flaws in the Horde questing system). Pushing for an absolute reversal, would mean to return to a more unbalanced situation.

99

I don’t really give a crap what it validates, learn to count. 8 is not 15.

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100

Given i said i simply counted what gamewise speaking, are considered gaming zones, and the fact that the starting ones are considered such, the numbers remain as is.

Allowing the nitpicking of throwing into the same bag, zones that are contained within others, remains a concession i was willing to take, as i admit i didn’t give the matter much thought or importance.

But yeah, my counting is fine, thanks.