So sit down and tell me how do you feel about Jaina?
I feel your pain sister. So do you hold grudge on your new Admiral?
Probably, but first of all you need to catch them first and not eat Kul Tiramisu all day.
Probably, but theyâre the highest und muscular for this too.
Thatâs because theyâre wider, not fatter.
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I donât disagree. To be clear I never said that it wasnât a formidable place to siege or that the siege was won through direct force alone. I am saying that the fact that they did manage to take is a testament to how powerful a force they were and by consequence, how that Lordaeron was able to beat them back is, in my opinion, an impressive feat.
I recall the civilians being evacuated though they are still in the process of doing this in the Horde side of the siege which is to be expected given they are trying to evacuate an entire city.
That said, evacuating the city doesnât suggest the horde didnât try to defend it with everything they had.
To be honest the claim that everything in the siege of Lordaeron went exactly as Sylvanas plans doesnât make sense to me. It ignores the rare showing of emotion displayed in the cinematic. It insists she knew the alliance could clear the blight, which they would have to deploy after the alliance destroyed their massive azerite machine. She knew their forces could be choked into the rear of the ruins and could not try to take the throne room, a more defensible position, until after. That in the late stages of the siege all the apothecaries were ordered to the throne room for some other reason than a last ditch effort for a trap, if she planned it all along way wasnât that blight already in place I wonder.
If she really planned all that out sheâs a tactical goddess and sheâll have already calculated everything that will happen throughout this war.
No, we met like a few days ago in a thread where you did exactly the same thing. Someone voiced and opinion you disagreed with and you provoke them with personal attacks, nit-picking at only pieces of the overall point. Thatâs pretty much the definition of trolling.
Ahh, thereâs the nit-picking. A strong majority of clans would constitute as a united force. If it meant all clans, all forces that would be a unified force. As the demon blood horde was at no time, as far as I know of, ever unified I have deliberately avoided stating exactly that.
Like I said, orcs left the Ironforge because they claimed the resources they sought from the area. They were not repelled by force of Ironforge, they left because they had higher priorities.
The feeling is mutual, for instance
Where did I say that stormwind was a bad fortress? Show me exactly when and where I said that.
You then build on your own argument which is entirely based on you putting words in my mouth by adding
Not how debates work. Or even conversation in the English language for that matter.
I expect neither of these things from you since you have never shown yourself to be capable of them.
Since you brought up reading comprehension check this out.
Literally the first thing I said. I straight up said I donât think my perspective is compatible with most people. Yet you are talking about it like I am asserting my opinion as given fact. Whatâs up with that?
No. You failed lore, you got offered correction by several people, you stuck to your own version of the events despite being proven wrong by book quotes.
If you expect me to think highly of someone who prefers headcanon to established lore, re-examine your position.
If you say so, you will forgive me for not trusting your judgement.
What are you talking about? You first speak of a united Horde, then backpedal on it, and say you did not? Are you illiterate? Do you not know what words mean?
For your information, the Horde attacking Lordaeron was not unified either.
Some remained on Draenor, some remained to watch the dwarves, some were left in the Hinterlands months before that, some were watching the ships, some were with Gulâdan.
You said wrong, you may check the Chronicles, if you donât want that, you can check Wowpedia.
Ironforge was besieged by a large Horde army lead by Doomhammer himself. He retreated because of rising casualties, not because of the fact he claimed resources. So, you are WRONG! It is not a matter of perspective, the book clearly states so.
Doomhammer focused his attention on Ironforge, seeing the dwarves as the greater of the two threats, and quickly laid siege to the underground city. The dwarves recognized that this would be their last stand and were prepared to dying fighting. They mobilized all of their resources and nearly their entire population took up arms to resist the siege. Though the Horde assaulted Ironforge in great numbers, the death toll proved horrendous for the orcs. For every dwarf that fell, ten orcs were brought down with them. Eventually, the cost grew so great that Doomhammer called off the siege.
Chronicles, page 150. I took this from Wowpedia, the source and the page have been provided.
Aye, except I present why I think so, while you keep failing.
Here. Before that, you asked me to name strategic locations that withstood the Horde. Then you laugh at Stormwind. What do you expect me to think?
Yeah, I am totally putting things in your mouth. It is not my fault you are incapable of forming a coherent argument, while at the same time being incapable of following your own statements. But I am the bad guy.
You wouldnât know what a debate is if it danced naked in front of you.
Look whoâs talking.
I am not duty-bound to accept your perspective unless it is lore correct. Now honestly, get off my back. When you are proven wrong by lore, you can not say âits my perspective.â
What you call perspective people call headcanon when such a perspective clashes with existing lore. I can not explain it simpler then that.
It is also remarkably funny to me that you keep claiming I am trolling while denying statements you previously made (I linked them to prove), making lore errors, and flailing at my perceived negativity.
The situation is simple, if you want my respect, earn it. You will not do so by borderline trolling, not following your own arguments, and failing lore and logic, while at the same time screeching about what a bad guy I am.
PS: You also completely abandoned your Orgrimmar starvation time line error. Giving up, or am I the bad guy? I guess every time you make an error its me nitpicking.
Sure, it might be massive details, but its still nitpicking, because you feel like it!
It was answer to this quote.
And
No it is not a testament, it was thank to a single warlock. Gulâdan took down the gates from within and it has gives no achievement points to Horde. Would it be orcs or Army of Kobolds standing outside the city, it is easy to pillage it if the gates are open from within.
Funny how Lordaeron which you think was so much more impressive then Stormwind, fell in same manner, by the hand of one man, from inside.
It happens after the burning here the quote:
âThey will come for us now. All of them!â he said.
âI know.â She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. âThey will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.â
He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. âYou have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what ?â
Her expression didnât waver. âThis was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.
When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.â
Horde would never be able to hold Undercity, not after War of Thornes and their army positioned in Kalimdor. Not when Alliances forces are in EK. She knew it. Her plan was to take control over Kalimdor. Lordaeron was a bait, an illusion created for Alliance to believe that Horde is defending the city. She had perfectly lured the boy king in her trap.
I have a different perspective than you did. You also didnât prove anything, the entire thing was interpretive. Unless you or one of the people I was debating was a credible expert in medieval combat concerning members of a fantasy race Iâm not really inclined to throw out my opinions because you happen to disagree.
I said treat with civility. Not think highly of. Once again, not at all what I said.
You literally quoted me specifying exactly what I am talking about. So why would it be the case that you refuse to rephrase anything you say yet I would do so for you? Iâm not trying to convince you, frankly at this point Iâd rather you just leave me alone. I donât see you as someone that can be reasonable and I donât enjoy reading your replies, Not because of any reason other than you arenât capable of civil discourse.
Fine, quoted from Wowpedia as you insist
âDespite their organization, the dwarf-gnome coalition was little match for the Orcish Horde. Outnumbered, their outposts and settlements eventually fell one by one before the furious advance of the orcish forces. Hundreds were killed in defense of their homeland,[12] but these defenses gradually withered before the onslaught. The dwarves and gnomes ultimately retreated to their mountain strongholds of Ironforge and Gnomeregan respectively.
Doomhammer focused his attention on Ironforge, seeing the dwarves as the greater of the two threats, and quickly laid siege to the underground city. The dwarves recognized that this would be their last stand and were prepared to dying fightingâ
âThe two cities had proved too costly in time and manpower to take properly, but Doomhammer already had what he needed in the form of Khaz Modanâs rich resources. The warchief stationed the Bleeding Hollow clan outside each city, ordering them to keep the dwarves and gnomes contained for the duration of the war. Horde smiths quickly got to work in the region, and before long were fully equipping the Horde with vast quantities of new armaments and siege weapons, placing the orcs one step closer to their goal.â
Like I said, they left because they had what they wanted and had a higher priority. Also seems pretty conclusive that if they were dead set on it, sure, they could have taken Ironforge. It would have been a pyrrhic victory, but sure.
Stormwind is the most iconic city that was destroyed by the Horde for which I was asking examples concerning. As I previously started the only reason it survived against just 3 of the clans was because Lothar turned up with another army. Once more clans united it fell anyway.
Iâd actually say your constant use of unnecessary personal attacks is why you are a bad guy. Like the very next thing you say;
As I have said, not really conducive to civil discourse really. It adds no merit to the topic which we are talking about.
By the same logic why would I be duty-bount to accept your perspective? Also, get off your back? You are the one who keeps responding to me.
You seem to be confusing your perspective with fact. Just because you interpret something in a given way doesnât make it absolute.
I can think of nothing I care less about than your respect.
Gave you the book and page number if even that isnât enough for you then why would I bother?
I really canât find anything that supports that GulâDan solo took out the stormwind defences, can you cite your source? What I remember and see when I look it up is that the city was burning due to horde catapults. Militia were working full capacity to try to put out the fires but the assassination of the king broke morale.
The Alliance faced the same logistical problem as the horde, forces at Kalimdor or kalimdor bound had to be sent and diverted to EK. Youâre also not giving me any sources here. None of that dialogue even suggestions, âletâs keep our forces here and let Lordaeron fallâ she even says we need to plan our defences. In the quest she refers to it âour prized Lordaeron keepâ. You generally donât give up a prized anything, Sylvanas probably even less so than most.
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Perspective is all fair and good, but lore is lore. Perspective is great and valued until it clashes with lore. Thatâs how it works.
Your statement about an United Horde came 24 hours before your clarification. I was explaining my thought process.
Pot, kettle.
It is still vastly different then your own quote of âgot what they wanted and leftâ. They were bleeding for Ironforge, hard. If ten dead orcs for one dwarf are not illustrative enough of what kind of a fortress Ironforge was, I legit donât know what to tell you.
It fell because moral collapsed after the Kingâs assassination.
I was replying to your own attacks.
Because a book sentence provided to you is not a perspective! It is a fact! If Chronicles literally state:
The cost in lives grew so great that Doomhammer called off the siege.
you can not say that orcs left because they had resources and werenât aiming for conquest. That might be your perspective, but your perspective is WRONG!
Good, I feel the same.
I have replied to you a day ago saying that I checked the pages and they do not prove your statement. I have that book literally on my computer, you linked some random pages as proof, I told you its not it.
Now you tell me you proved something⌠
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We retcon this expansion and forget it ever launched. Problem solved.
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Population growth can be rather significant in +10.000 years. Specially if ingame that collective is addressed as an entire new race/civilisation.
And Night elves just got genocided.
But they didnât in World of Warcraft.
And when dealing with bigger enemies such as the Legion, the needed help from other factions.
They even needed help to deal with the likes of Grom Hellscream and the Warsong clan.
No, I meant Malfurion wiping entire demon armies with a storm caused because âHe sadâ.
Thatâs like saying Troll armies never had an issue outside wow.
Current depiction is a thing.
And throughout most of the games history (and even the books), Night elves werenât that much of a big thing as some people say they are.
Unless you are willing to dismiss 20 RL years of portrayal, which at this point would be simply taking someoneâs wistful thinking over what is being shown in the actual game that has the story argued upon.
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Yeah same can be applied to both races and unlike Sinâdorei Kaldorei are immortal.
We have no info about reproduction of given race, so I donât think it will yield anything useful discussing population growth like that.
Darnassus got genocided. As far as I remember not even 30 years ago Sinâdorei got literally genocided, only 10% left to carry on their legacy.
Yeah exactly! Which is convenient all of a sudden for Horde. I find explanation for that, because if they did Horde would never have dominance in Kalimdor, not to talk about the resources to feed.
Uhm yes? The world ending army of demons whoâs boss cleaves planets in half⌠And correction - in first war they stood alone, majority of the force defending being Night Elves, with their wikd gods,Dragon Aspects. Last time I checked Sinâdorei got lands got plawed by a single Death Knight.
And second Legion invasion, the other Factions âhelpâ was to buy time for Night Elves to finish their ritual, acting as distraction or meat shields.
As far as I know, they pretty much kicked Groms @ss, until he had to result to Demon Blood. Stuff so powerful that killed the Wild God!
Benefits of being Cenariusâ Theroâshen.
Yeah, but unlike Night Elves, they did. And it would be a lie.
World of Warcraft history yes! And in books you get to read how Malfurion levels the fields with his magic and summons the tornadoes seen zones away. But suddenly humbles himself vs Dark Lady. Not cinvienced.
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True, which is what I am saying Horde forces are Kalimdor based, while Alliance has his dominance in EK. You judge yourself.
No, the amount of army stationed in UC does. Also how do you think Horde would manage to fortify UC from Kalimdor faster then Alliance mobilised their armies in EK.
Which should be enough to set them on similar footing. Because whereas the Blood elves at least had time to recover, Night elves just got genocided.
its the same reason as to why the orc clans needed an Alliance of several kingdoms to be defeated, but ingame are but one fragment of a whole playable faction.
For X reasons, current depiction of races isnât the same as past ones.
Said reasoning might be flimsy in some cases, but fact remains that itâs still the current situation of said race.
And unless you are to dismiss 20 years of lore, said portrayal is to be taken as is, instead of how we think/want it to be.
Yes. The trump card.
That doesnât make the rest of the Night elf army any better. And if the bulk of the Night elf strength lays almost entirely on Malfurions shoulders, that would still portray them rather weak.
And as hyperbolic as Malfurions powers are, A Good War still shows Sylvanas having the power to halt him and send him trashing into trees.
And vulnerable to something as mundane as an axe to the back.
Point is, Night elves are no longer as strong as they were in times past. And after having their race genocided, they are expected to be even weaker.
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Honestly, I dont know in which world killing 90% of nation equal to Burning the civilians in the Tree and losing a war. Consider that Night Elven main army was absent. Hyjal, Moonglade, Felwood, Ashenvale - as area was not massacred as far as I know, except Astranaar, Valâsharah still stand.
It was never stated Night Elves 90% was killed and even if that was a case their proportions to Sinâdorei is vast.
Also I doubt Sinâdorei spent that 30 years into breeding with each other. 30 years is nowhere enough for re-population, hell even for Humans.
Funny, to say that, when each big Fortress they attacked was a failure, except Stormwind.
And Orcish Horde having fought three wars with defeat each time results in dwindling in their numbers.
Orcs challanged the world power and failed three times, Night Elves defended the world, against bigger odds two times and succeeded. I do see the difference between two.
Its because I take 20 year of lore and writers describing the power of the race and their testament to power, that makes my gut wrench to see them act so inexperienced and incapable of doing anything against the Orcish clans in Ashenvale, not talking about WoT here.
That is why their strength level is reduced to nothing. Each character that has their time dedicated by writers have extremely powerful skills. Night Elves have knowledge in almost all aspects of power - Druidic (nature), Priesthood of Elune (Light and arcane), Highborne magic - foundation of arcane powers came from Night Elves and spread to other races and lastly their physical military.
Take Maiev - a single warrior able to decimate the hordes of demons. Jarod one of the best Lieutenants. Shadris and Illidan. Weirdly rest of the military force is described in such a bland and boring way, they would equal to a rookie Human footman. Seems like they have been doing little to zero training for 10 000 years.
We can agree that Highborne and Legion forces were undoubtedly stronger force vs todays unified Horde races, just having Horde steamroll Kaldorei forces is humiliation to every Night Elven fan, just saying.
A.K.A. Plot demands it.
I would not mind Kaldorei losing a war, getting genocided or seeing their power level diminished, but if thats the case I want to see the explanation behind their power level being diminished or them actually fighting back the Horde, not this⌠its just pathetic.
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But if you sett up a Trap, deliberately retreat to chokepoints, evacuate civilians etc. you think you are going to lose. And if you are going to lose even Syl wouldnât be stupid enough to throw every body into the meatgrinder.
The reasonable thing to do in her place would be, to bring enough soldiers to make a show and give a fight to the Alliance, without wasting more then necessary to spring the Trap. (you donât rig your whole city to become a toxic deathtrap if you plan to win)
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well, the Russians did abandon and burn Moscow when Napoleon invaded Russia, caveat being they did rebuild the city
Id say that if the characters put enough emotional charge into the whole incident, to the point you have several of the acknowledging genocide and naming random kids as âthe Last Oneâ, is seems pretty clear the hit Night elves took was a heavy one.
Teldrassil still is the biggest outpost they had. And the one that had the biggest number of civilians in it.
The one stating the fact that they would need all the kingdoms working together to halt them was Anduin Lothar himself.
Night elves defended the world with the aid of several other races, including orcs, and succeeded barely thanks to some quite obvious deus ex machina and some additional plot nukes. Not because of the strength of their race alone.
In WotA they were failing hard until the time travelers and the demigods swooped in to save them too.
If we are to dismiss 20 years of writing and instead take what we think is better or more logicalâŚ
Why bother argue about the story at all? Make up the whole thing while you are at it.
Why? They cant bear the fact that anything less that an intergalactic and infinite demon army can defeat them?.
Theyâll survive.
I could argue that how is it possible for a race that managed to subdue an entire planet and defeat Warcrafts Protoss equivalent, is being currently depicted as just a fraction of a playable faction.
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Yeah, âIâd sayâ is not a fact and as much as I agree with you, situation being dire, it is nowhere near the total extinction of race. And the rest is your assumption.
Cities stood their borders, as for defeating the Orcs from the lands, yes Because when a planet size force of hulking creatures attack you, you donât go alone with a gun to shoot them down.
Yet succeeded. And that biased sentence is translated to - giving up their immortality and fulfilling their duty given by aspects, if someone is wondeing.
Wild Gods aided Night Elves due to respect of the druids and yet maintaining the relationship with race even afterwards. Druids worshipped each of them, being first to enter the emerald dream and preserve the balance. I wonder why would they help.
And next time any other race manages to defand their planet from world ending threat alone with their demi gods, come and letâs have this ânot so strong Night Elvesâ talk.
I just said it is because of this 20 years of lore, I am able top bring this arguments.
No because there is no explanation and development given, no actual facts or read to build up the current state of Night Elves, barely capable to maintain their borders.
And not having to sit here discussing things on assumptions and what ifs.
Yes, we will, we most certainly will.
Maybe because they drank demon blood hulked their powers up, subdued themselves as slaves to Legion. Never had unification of clans. Betrayed each other, destroyed their own planet because of greed. Their power being nothing but pure rage, that back lashed back on them.
See, how we could discuss the rise and the reasons of fall of orcs, because it was explained.
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As I recall the exact subject was basically a âwho would winâ to which you cannot know for certain, so thatâs absolute nonsense. Ergo you asserting your opinion as a fact is also absolute nonsense. Given your above statement, that proves that you are unable to differentiate your opinion from fact.
By âexplaining my thought processâ how does it help to throw in âare you illiterate? Do you knot know what word mean?â Please be specific, I would really like to read you explain that because I really donât see how that adds to anything other than a reflection on you. Not a good one.
Let me finish my quote for you;
âI donât enjoy reading your replies, Not because of any reason other than you arenât capable of civil discourse.â
Again, explain to me with specificity where I am throwing out personal attacks that in no way pertain to the topic of conversation. As far as I can see at worse I was dismissive of you. I never attacked your character as you frequently have done to me.
Itâs not a quote if itâs not word for word. That would be paraphrasing. Anyway what the actual quote is;
âLike I said, orcs left the Ironforge because they claimed the resources they sought from the area. They were not repelled by force of Ironforge, they left because they had higher prioritiesâ
Which according to the source you demanded I use, is accurate. Concerning the siege of Lordaeron the same source states âIt was in this moment that Doomhammer understood the campaign was lost; at this point, even if Capital City fell, he would be unable to withstand the full power of the Alliance present.â There is no such terminology concerning Ironforge. Yes, it does state that they were losing men at a rate of 10 for every 1 dwarf killed, but it never states anywhere that they were losing the conflict. It does say, âThe two cities had proved too costly in time and manpower to take properly, but Doomhammer already had what he needed in the form of Khaz Modanâs rich resourcesâ ⌠âplacing the orcs one step closer to their goalâ
Ergo, it was no longer worth it. They were not repelled by force as they clearly were from Lordaeron. Exactly what I said in the first place.
Go ahead, prove that it was precisely because of that and nothing to do with the city burning or the horde being the strong force at that time. Otherwise according to you;
If you really felt like I attacked you then you should try having a conversation with yourselfâŚ
At what point did I claim that the Horde was easily smashing the dwarves? I never said it wasnât costly. I said Ironforge was unable to repel the siege by force. According to the same source you are using, that is accurate as quoted above.
Guess that means itâs your perspective thatâs wrong. Or since this is about reading what is in a book does this come under reading comprehension? Eh, details.
Wasnât aware you could buy the book on your computer. In any case try chapter 8 then, I canât really give you page numbers it seems but in this chapter among other things Thrall tells Jaina âClosed trade permits children to starve, to be exposed to the elements, to become sickâ I was paraphrasing when I pointed out;
I think itâs difficult to judge. As far as I can tell the alliance should be physically closer, but werenât they mobilised and en route to Teldrassil? If not do we know when they specifically mobilised? Thereâs too much unknown. All I really know is that Horde had to move its already mobilised forces through friendly territory and as Sylvanas ordered the defences while Teldrassil was still burning, they had a head start. The alliance could only have begun there once they knew there wasnât anything left to save.
I donât want to say that you canât be right. Maybe you are, but I am not seeing anything to indicate what you are claiming is accurate. To me thereâs just too much against the idea that she actively deployed less than as much proportional strength as the alliance.
So, another example is, if the Horde were so much less than the alliance how did they push them back from the walls as they did shortly before they deployed the azerite machine? Thatâs not even counting, as some are claiming, the Night Elves are basically the ultimate bad*sses who kill horde 10 to 1 as they were there in force and had more reason than anyone to want to kill some horde.
You are stating your perception of what Sylvanas planned first and are trying to describe events to fit that narrative. If it was always meant as a trap why did she summon all apothecaries to her while she had Nathanos hold them off for as long as possible? If what you are saying is correct then there would have been no need for that, the entire ruins would have been rigged from the get go.
If Sylvanas meant for it to happen as it did how could she have known Jaina could clear the blight, something no one has done so easily before now? (To my knowledge)
Why bother to use the kind of language she does at all? She called it her prized Lordaeron Keep, or something to that effect. If it was just a very large trap to her at this stage why would the writers include that? She seems pretty p*ssed to me in the cinematic when it appears they are about to lose. All of these things are pushing against the narrative that it was always a just a trap.
Plus I have to ask, how smart tactically do you really think she is? To plan all of that? Come on, that would be insane. I think sheâs resourceful for certain but this is way beyond that.
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I am not asserting my opinion, I am giving a fact from a book. What you are doing is asserting your opinion, unfounded on lore, as fact.
Do I really need to explain what the word âUnited Hordeâ means? Seriously?
No, it is not accurate, because when it is stated in the Chronicles that Doomhammer called off the siege because the cost was too high, that is an exact statement that they were in fact repelled by the forces of Ironforge.
Sure.
Under the mantle of Orgrim Doomhammer, the various orcish clans began their siege on Stormwind Keep. The catapults let loose their fiery rocks as the bulk of the main Horde marched towards the main gate, with the Blackrock clan charging from the Eastern Wall. Within moments, Stormwind Keep was ablaze with shadows dancing on the walls. While the militia were busy trying to put out the fires, Garona, under the command of the Shadow Council, assassinated King Llane while delivering her report, which stated that as long as a strong heart was on the throne, the mensâ morale would not falter. With the assassination of the king, the men lost their morale and Stormwind Keep fell under the might of the Orcish Horde.
Wowpedia, Sourced from Chronicles. You literally have an Orc confirming that Stormwind will not fall until the King dies, words confirmed by other Orcish chieftains.
You literally have a sentence that Doomhammer deemed his casualties too high.
You are probably unaware that PDF exists.
This discussion is being held after the Elemental unrests leading to Cataclysm begin, not after the Wrathgate.
The trade was closed after the Wrathgate, the starvation in Durotar began as part of the drought and earthquakes which preceded the Cataclysm, after the War against the Lich King was over.
In the moment when the night elves closed the trade, no one was dying from starvation.
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