Closed the trade due to Twilight Hammer Horde infiltrators butchering a kaldorei wagon.
Unless intel was provided to the elves that it wasn’t Garrosh, then they were in their own rights to close off the trade.
Alliance can only go off what they know at that time, not what the Horde also knows or doesn’t know. Tyrande and Jaina aren’t Bronze Dragons - time shifting isn’t one of their specialties.
Anything said in a book from a character’s perspective is only fact if it is describing themselves or something they are seeing. A character’s assessment of a situation, particularly one where that character made bad choices with dire consequences, does not make that assessment fact.
Like I said, an opinion is not a fact.
Why are you dodging the question I actually asked you? Could it be you acknowledge you are actually in the wrong?
Which doesn’t mean they are losing. If you are in the midst of a war campaign it only makes sense to make tactical choices. Doomhammer chose to pursue humans rather than wipe out the dwarves. The bottom line is what would have happened had he not called off the siege? The dwarves would have been wiped out. Repelling by force means the assaulting army didn’t have the actual power to finish the job.
Ergo, once again you are conflating your opinion as a fact.
First of all, that’s not an orc confirming it, it’s just a narrative being told. But in any case, that doesn’t prove your point at all. What you are saying is tantamount to “if morale isn’t broken and army cannot lose.” Which is obviously untrue due to common sense. Beyond that you are saying a city on fire, under siege by a force they had been losing to fairly decisively up until that point, could have held on, if only it weren’t for the morale. Maybe that’s true, but since there’s no proof the word you like to use is “headcannon”
And several detailing how the dwarves were getting their tushies kicked.
Don’t suppose you will indulge me in saying how This one advances anything? You’ll probably just going to blank it like the last time I asked you.
My original point was that all this happened before the burning of teldrassil and that closing of trade resulted it starvation.
You originally said;
“after the Cataclysm wrecked the world” So are you back peddling on what you said? Or are you actually going to try to claim that the elemental disturbances wrecked the world, not the aftermath of Deathwing’s emergence and consequential destruction across the world? Not that it matters, it doesn’t change anything to me since what I said was 100% accurate and apparently even you can’t refute it.
We are not speaking of character assessment’s here, you have very clear cut out facts which are indisputable.
No I am not. And I am not dodging anything, I am just incapable of deciphering your drivel.
No one said they are losing, I only said they were repelled by martial force. That fact I have proven by using the Chronicles, according to which Doomhammer literally ordered a retreat because of heavy casualties.
The suffering of insanely heavy casualties.
It is remarkable to me that you offer an opinion based only on your farting above this as fact, then throw this at me, but whatever.
I mean, the only thing you actually do in debates is offer your own crap as fact, miss Lordaeron-toughest-fortress-ever-because-I-said-so-although-if-you-want-to-dispute-that-you-need-to-be-an-expert.
Which would be fine, if you didn’t keep doing it when it clashes with lore.
Yes, it is an orc. It is Garonna, and she says the other Chieftains are in agreement with the King’s assessment that Stormwind shall not fall while a strong man sits the throne. You didn’t even read this, but keep babbling, I find this amusing.
It is remarkable how much credit you give yourself, although you are debating a topic who’s lore you fail. If you don’t know something, you shouldn’t debate it.
That’s relatively simple to comprehend, though we already saw you have comprehension issues.
If you take one dwarf dying for ten orc as the dwarves being kicked, you might have a problem.
I just don’t understand your drivel. Although, at this point I am quite sure you don’t understand it either.
Like, is it that amazing I can read books on the computer? Do you want me to explain electricity to you too while we are at it? Maybe the wheel?
I am not backpedalling anything, the elemental disturbances and drought which preceded Deathwing’s reemergence are also part of the Cataclysm.
You can not blame the Alliance for Orcs starving thanks to a global catastrophe.
Oh, for bonus points:
You are apparently laboring under the impression that since everything is narrative, you are somehow some sort of expert who’s opinions hold equal weight to the said narrative.
I would suggest that you open some sort of blog, though I wouldn’t expect much success with it. Maybe a comedy one, though? The world according to Kixen? No need to credit me on the idea, its on the house.
And said force was downplayed narratively speaking until it became but a fraction of a bigger playable faction. Like Night elves.
If we were to dismiss 20 years of ingame lore, those same orc clans would suffice to put against the ropes the entire Alliance faction. Like they did in the past during the First and Second War.
Current depiction and narrative is relevant. And just as plenty other races, the current state Night elves are in is but a shadow of its former strength.
Not thanks to their own power, but because of the aid they received from external sources. Be them demigods, allies, or some other plot nuke magic.
Have they ever had an actual militar victory that didn’t require copious amount of random plot magic and deus ex machina devices such as demigods or sudden powerful beings?
Any actual victory they won on military terms?
Who did they fight during that ‘Long Vigil’ that supposedly made them so strong?
And Wild Gods are but an impersonation of the natural energies of the planet. They are not under Night elf military.
They can and will support other races if needed.
Often the simplest answers suffice. Occams Razor.
Why would the Night elves be depicted for such a long time not as strong as I thought they should/would be?: Because they aren’t as strong as I think they are.
Why would they fail to contain mundane threats?: Because the times they fought stronger foes, they counted with the help of otherworldly beings that shouldered the burden of said fight and helped them achieve victory. Which means that by themselves, Night elves might not be as strong as I think they are.
Edit: And this doesn’t mean they are overall “weak”. It means they are weakER, than some people think.
Yes we are. That entire chapter is told from Cairne’s point of view.
You don’t understand;
Is that what you are saying? Seems like a fairly simple question.
Except you haven’t. Already broken it down for you several times how the narrative you a balancing on a single sentence removed from context isn’t a valid argument against the entire paragraph the same sentence sits in.
Really can’t think of another way to say suffering heavy casualties doesn’t mean losing. Evidently you’ve run out of ways to actually argue the point outside of repeating yourself. Still not matter how many times you say it 1+1 isn’t 3.
So just out of curiosity do you resort to these petty jabs out of frustration or as a crutch when your points are insufficient?
Normally I just say “in my opinion” or “from my perspective” but you are the one insisting we take Wowpedia as gospel, even though it’s fan made and run and therefore subject to at least some bias. That source is what says that you are wrong so don’t blame me for that.
Which shows how unsurprisingly little attention you pay to anything I have ever said. I’d point out the first thing I said in this chain again but repeating myself gets a little dull after awhile. I also never said it was the toughest fortress. It’s certainly not the toughest. The crux of my original point is that it is a substantially harder to siege than Teldrassil would be to burn. I mean setting fire to a tree… isn’t that much obvious. Apparently you disagree so here we are.
If you don’t disagree then you are waging this massive campaign against my opinion over semantics. To which I could only say; Wow.
Well the text you linked wasn’t. Nothing in it attributes it to anyone. So either you have the source material in front of you or… well just no.
Interestingly I wasn’t debating it, I gave an opinion. You’re the one who jumped on it and won’t leave it alone. Oh and hey another jab. Is it from insecurity?
Taken out of context like that sure.
I am asking you how you think your constantly insulting me helps the conversation in anyway. It’s not a complex question.
Here’s a better idea, how about you explain to me the code of conduct? Like, maybe the first and second bullet point under Harassing and Defamatory. Pretty sure that means targeting a player with slander is against the code of conduct. Continually doing so even more so. Could be wrong though, what do you think?
Thrall seems to relate it directly to the night elves actually. As the leader of the horde and orcs in particular that seems to be a credible source. Wait, if you are disagreeing with what a character is saying in a book does THIS count as “headcannon” ?
If the conclusion you’ve come to is that I must think that highly of myself because I disagree with you then oh my god.
Not sure what that is supposed to be, funny? Just comes across as petty. Sorry.
That was the old debate. Further more, Garrosh suffering several wounds and being wounded so he can not hold an axe properly is no character assessment. Its a fact.
You are right, I do not understand. Further more, I am rude because I find you too bothersome to hide the fact.
It does not mean losing, because the Dwarves were heavily outnumbered. The orcs could afford those casualties very well, that’s the point. If you lose 10 orcs for one dwarf, but have a hundred orcs for each dwarf, you won’t lose.
My points are rarely insufficient, so no.
Wowpedia is a valid source of information if its sourced properly. Further more, if you wanna deny lore, go for it. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously.
I do pay attention, but I am not in your head, so I can not figure out exactly what you mean. Calling me out for not perfectly understanding you is senseless. Not to mention your favorite word, petty.
With this I can agree, it makes sense.
I do have a source of the material in front of me, thank you very much.
I am willing to elaborate why its true in general.
I am not insulting you, it is not my fault that your arguments are bad, stretched, and unsupported by lore.
I think you might read the code of Conduct yourself before preaching to me about it.
I fail to see how this is relevant. The orc starving did not happen directly after the Wrathgate, and it did not happen because of the Alliance starving them out. It happened because of a global catastrophe and war exhaustion.
Hamuul Runetotem also says that the night elves are completely unaware the Horde is suffering.
Right back at you, whatever.
Except that’s exactly what Garrosh did which resulted in the shattering of the Runespear. Ergo Carine was shown to have misjudged. In case that he thought the Runespear could have blocked Gorehowl wasn’t enough…
So because you are annoyed at me, for disagreeing with you after you jumped on my statements, you have the right to continually insult me? Pretty there’s a word for that. Well there are several words.
That’s pretty much exactly my point. Cool.
If you say so. Guess that means it’s out of frustration then.
Almost everything is a valid source of information if sourced properly. Problem is no humans receive the exact same information from reading the same text. Therefore there are not absolutes.
You could always just ask me to rephrase. What is senseless is losing your sh*t when someone has sees something in a way that conflicts with your perspective.
I also didn’t call you out even after you were being rude for awhile. It was only after I lost patience with you that I was more curt. I am only human after all.
I want to cry a little bit… then why were you arguing with me?!
Well there you have it. Like I said, text you linked wasn’t from a point of view though.
You tried that but it involves taking a sentence out of context, ignoring the surrounding text, so I dismissed it.
WTF, come on you absolutely are. You really want me to quote every insult?
Look if you feel I have breached it somehow by all means do share and if I have I am prepared to adjust my behaviour. I on the other hand have pretty much asked you to stop with the slander every single post after the first like 3 since you started yet still you persist. Yet you think you are really able to take the high ground on this one??
Really starting to seem like semantics now. What bearing does this information have on the point at hand?
So we have a character that thinks they do and a character that thinks they don’t. So… seems to be there’s at least some subjectivity to this. The question to me is, are they accountable either way? To me the answer to that is yeah, kinda.
Unlike Night Elves, we have a given information how they came to this point. Giving us idea to judge and reflect on their path, while Night Elves - puff Nerfed.
I am not dismissing anything in my arguements and I really dont know why you keep bringing that up.
Failed miserably three times. Due to them not being themselves. And their cause not being noble.
Plot nuke magic, magic that has driven Night Elven civilisation into their prime. Magic that allowed them to conquer whole Kalimdor, shatter the legendary troll races to the ground and making their kingdom the biggest ever created by any race in the entirety of Azeroths lifespan ? Thats pretty F*cking impressive if you ask me. Now imagine how powerful force Legion is.
Read the comment above.
Not known and I’m not going to argue about something I and you have no information about.
Exactly, they seek the balance of the world and the preserving the state of nature on Azeroth, which hand in hand goes to what Night Elves stand, thus creating a relationship between two where each have died for other. Kept connection in Emerald Dream and brought the Wild Gods back.
If it comes to the fact that Night Elves no longer will act as guardians of nature and preserve the balance, sure. Minding that some other race will take that role and prove themselves worthy of their attention. Nowadays there are none more competent then Night Elves, so I dont know what your point here.
Not when, the situation leaves so many unanswered questions and confusion instead of clarification.
Headcannon.
Kinda makes sense no?
Which means that, by their actions and accomplishments they have earned the trust and sheltering of natures beings far stronger then them. Living for thousands of years among those beings. Time and time over demonstrated that the two are inseparable after millennia of co-existing. Having Ancients living with night elves, Dryads and Sons of cenarius, even Cenarius living among the mortal race.
The fantasy of the race has been given and drawn to player with that exact same idea, stripping these things away from game without any explanation is what makes no sense. As for the Night Elves themselves as sole race, it has been shown that race itself is far more stronger and experienced then the ones that have dared to challenge their rule with the characters I’ve named above before.
The knowledge is there for taking and time has been on their side.
I am perfectly willing to accept that. I am not perfectly willing to accept you neglecting Garrosh’s own wounds and problems.
I am not annoyed at you for disagreeing with me. I am annoyed with you because people actually put an effort into their arguments, marshall them, weigh and consider them carefully, and then you act dismissive and rude.
Imagine, I can appreciate your points too.
True, but muddying everything completely is not the answer.
So am I.
No idea, we went too far back.
I sincerely apologize for not acting more maturely.
It isn’t semantics, these details are important.
And I disagree, because they did not know the new situation.
If you are willing to accept that Cairne misjudged then you must also be open the concept that Garrosh’s battle capability is unknown in relation to Cairne’s own. If that’s true then the outcome is unknown and thus has a subjective element to it.
Wasn’t the first word you said in response to my opinion “Crap.” ? Yet you are talking to me about respect? You, who has insulted me in every post?! Wow, just @#$%ing WOW dude.
Also you are saying I just pluck my statements from whimsyland and don’t give a toss. Awesome, that makes me feel great about spending what amounts to hours responding to you. Much more hurtful than your insults 
You know what. I’m sorry, I’m done. My reason for continuing to post was the idea that surely the correct combination of words could convey my intended meaning. Thing is this is just really &^%! for me. I don’t mind a debate but when that person is actively trying to cause grief… why am I doing this to myself?
GG I quit. You “win”
The fleet was not big enough to move the forces around the continents so easily, that was the main idea securing the Kalimdor. Horde is not able to aid themselves in EK, like Alliance is not able to aid Kaldorei in Kalimdor quickly.
Yes, I am. But that’s about the only thing I am willing to accept. It does not change my previous arguments.
I would examine my own behavior if I were you.
I didn’t make you reply to anything.
I legit don’t know what to tell you. Cover yourself in ashes all you want, but you can not discard people’s arguments out of hand.
Yay. Whatever. Father, it is finally over.
When the alternative to explain “Why aren’t night elves shown as strong as I think they are”, needs to be excused with a “Because Blizzard has been getting their story wrong for the entire MMO”…
I’d say that the simpler approach of “Maybe they are NOT as strong as I think they were”, becomes the rather obvious and more reasonable way of explaining it.
Going against what the Game writers have said throughout the year seems rather ballsy.
Ps: And again, I wouldn’t count on the Wild Gods as inherent parts of the Night elf army. Their goals might have been aligned for some time, but Night elves are their own race with a personal agenda. For starters, Teldrassil was an entirely selfish thing they created because they wanted to be immortal again.
Sooo…
Relating the Night Elves’ writing in the same fashion as Warhammer’s Faction writing perhaps? Because they’re also really really hyped up to be powerful, exaggerated to be terrible and then embellished to be the strongest of the lot.
And then you buy them for Tabletop games and realize how equal or lesser in strength they really are in a proper session.
Well, that is your explanation and that is totally alright. But I prefer to stay where I am, because Blizzard tends to butcher things for the sake of plot and balance for factions.
This is simplifying it a lot. There are supportive narratives that go beyond actual gaming restrictions that support the fact that Night elves are not the kind of force some argue about.
Understood.
But it’s not just gaming restrictions. I can link you a few descriptive narratives if you want?
What you’re going at feels like embellished writing technique. Some of which I would say is not the fault of the people if they fell for such a fantasy. You could do such things to any kind of race.
Completely restore the night elves.
Once power and various highly skilled groups are restored bringing their knowledge and expertise.
Then claim territory: secure the broken isles as stage one. Its night elf land mostly, especially Suramar, Azsuna, Val’sharah and Broken shore.
Build up strongholds and cities - Nar’thalas, if Suramar is to remain nightborne, but I think night elves should at the very least take the un-instanced portion either with defecting nightborne help or by conquest. Horde Nightborne in the Nighthold . They should also be able to secure both Highmountain and Suramar city, or give the highmountain anultimatum
Once strength base is built, secure and defensible, prepare for the invasion of Kalimdor. Take back all their lands from Azshara to Feralas.
Night elves have suffered many horrible losses, it’s time they get some real momentum and serious fighting skills utilising the best and greatest things their race has achieved in the arcane, nature and spiritual matters and fel to re establish themselves as a strong power base in and of their own right.
It would also be nice if along the way the Drae ei, Worgen and void elves help too and a deep friendship occurs.
Your power fantasies haven’t slowed down I see.