This action has NOTHING to do woth the events of BFA
Edit: If you want my personal opinion Greymanes attack had cause and reasoning behind it. It was done to enact the vengeance.
Wars start on way less then this. For example BFA.
The fact that he disobayed Anduin, should have had some serious consequences! That is Anduins weakness and Horde has not demanded it.
Thatâs a weird stance to me.
I agree with you in that, when you are playing as one side what you see as relevent or not is, for the most part, for you to decide. I am a big believer in the game is what you perceive it to be not something others can tell you what it is.
I disagree with you in while holding that same stance, you are criticizing what someone else makes of this and how the consequently responded. That really feels like a double standard.
Alliance attacking the horde and not resolving the issue has nothing to do with the subsequent total war between both said faction? I respectfully disagree.
During Azsuna in Legion, you do deliver intelligence from the Queenâs Reprisal that Sylvanas is searching for something in Stormheim. Whether itâs canonically done by the Alliance or Horde is unknown
3 genocides is also an hilarious overkill, after such grandstanding.
if they can do the extreme tragedy for dramatic effect, i donât see why I shouldnât expect the opposite to occur for wonder effect.
Unless the writers have some sadistic fetish to peddle tragedy and misery as their primary conveying of narrative.
Mind you, the attack was done about ongoing dispute with Gilneas and there would be no peace between two factions until it wont be resolved. With his attack Greymane added yet another issue to be resolved.
Horde and Alliance were not at peace ever even in Legion on the paper.
Thats politics, giving short term peace to boy king, avoiding another war and tome to heal while delivering wedge amonst the other faction. Politics is double standards.
Do not except Genn to be punished now⌠for obvious reasons.
Whole Sylvanasâ the short term peace wont last so we attack them now is such a nonsense. When she was the one who railed up the war drums on both sides.
You had Anduin fighting for peace and Night Elves - Malfurion stating in Ashenvale there is no need for war. Draenei and Dwarves preoccupied with themselves.
It was her provoking mind that used the Horde to start another war.
But thats plainly shown in Good War that is not the reason Sylvanas is looking to start the war.
Here is a quote from the short story how deranged Sylvanasâ thinking is and how wrong she had been proven by the events of Legion and recent relationship between two factions. That it is only her who cannot move forward from all the leaders of faction. I agree change is slow and there will be still more disagreements to come in this goal of achieving peace, but it has already started and Sylvanas wants to destroy that.
You are not Garrosh Hellscream. Why do you want to throw the Horde into the meat grinder again?â
Sylvanasâs eyes did not waver, even in the face of his rage. âIf I dedicated myself to peace with the Alliance, would it last a year?â
âYes,â Saurfang said curtly.
âHow about two years? Five? Ten? Fifty?â
Saurfang felt the trap closing in on him, and he did not like it. âWe fought sideâbyâside against the Burning Legion. That creates bonds that are not easily broken.â
âTime breaks every bond.â Sylvanas leaned across the table. Her words flew like arrows. âWhat do you believe? Will peace last five years or fifty?â
He leaned forward, too, his face inches away from hers. Neither blinked. âWhat I believe doesnât matter, Warchief. What do you believe?â
âI believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.â There was a
smile on Sylvanasâs face. It was not a pleasant one.
âI believe the Darkspear tribe hasnât forgotten who drove them from their islands,â she continued. âI believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin. I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Allianceânot unless we win it on the battlefield on our terms. And believing that, answer this, Saurfang: what use is delaying the inevitable?â
By the spirits, she is cold .
As you can see Strormheim is mentio ed Nowhere.
I am fairly sure that it is canon. Itâs a bit of a nightmare trying to untangle things chronologically but I think that is supposed to happen first. I am also fairly sure from the rogue quest lines that Gennâs attack isnât as treasonous as it appears. He takes it too far but the alliance were being fed intelligence that suggested horde hostilities from legion infiltrators posing as alliance operative(s).
If you are talking about the night elves like highborne etc, then I interpret that as a detailed ârise and fall of the Night Elf empireâ kind of thing. These guys arses were cold long before we were playing the game (in game time)
Hmm, close, but I just want to know in the simplest form if you think this action was Right or Wrong. You give me justifications so I think you maybe think Right, but now acknowledging it as vengeance surely thatâs Wrong? I totally get it, you want to flesh out your stance but right now i canât see the bones of it.
The horde should have been sending diplomats to the folks who just struck out at their warchief? I think you have that backwards. Alliance took a drastic action that changed the relationship between the horde and alliance. If that turned out to be a mistake itâs their responsibility to make efforts to rectify this.
By not doing this they are condoning it as Aethil said.
Oh, thatâs interesting. I thought a tenuous peace was established with the result of MoP. Horde and alliance then worked together against the Iron Horde. By legion they were still alliance, as evident by the Legion cinematic and the broken shore event. Stormheim was the first incident that broke the peace salvaged from the Garrosh situation.
Or do I have my facts wrong? If so let me know, that would change things in my mind about the weight of the actions in Stormheim.
I can see why this is your stance now. But I disagree
The reason this reasoning doesnât reach me sitting in the horde camp is you are expecting horde to think like alliance and play the same political games. To quote another
âHave you ever seen a fierce animal you were sure would never bite? Because I havenâtâŚâ
Point being the alliance pulled the tail of the tiger. If they thought that nothing would come of that⌠well shame on them.
Other motivations are shown to be sure⌠but I donât remember anything indicating stormheim was forgotten about. To be fair the idea it doesnât play a role in it suggests Sylvanas has forgiven and forgotten, you believe that? I sure donât.
In name? No. But;
Why do you think that comes to her mind first? Ratio-respectively they are a smaller faction within the alliance.
These pretty accurate reflect the mentality of the alliance where the forsaken are concerned. And as for âhuntedâ well as I recall the alliance skyship deliberated tracked down the forsaken fleet and kill them on sight as was explicitly told to the alliance player on the intro. So what would that be if not hunted? I could be wrong of course. Only, I canât think of a clearer example of what she might mean by âhuntedâ than that. Can you?
No, who the intelligence goes to is difficult to say. If the Horde PC did it, it goes to Advisor Stillwater, whoâll probably guard it, if the Alliance PC does it, it goes to Lieutenant Surtees, whoâll probably give it to Greymane
I wouldnât say it is that difficult to determine the canonical version of that quest.
Genn and the Alliance forces have to find out that Sylvanas and the Forsaken are up to something somehow and no other way (as far as I know) has been shown nor explored.
So it has to be the Alliance which gets that infoâ in the canon version.
No of course he was not right attacking against his kings orders. That was enacted by his personal justified motives and what do you know if not for him hell knows how many Valâkyr would sylvanas have now.
Seems Greymanes wolvish instincs sniffs out Sylvanasâ evil plans. 
There are other ways of communicating then sending diplomats to demand punishment of military leader yâknow.
No, no they have not. As said they have struck forsaken not the Horde forces and everyone in both sides knew why that attack comes from and whats the reasoning behind it. Thats why Stormheim is not mentioned anywhere in game characters, except the fans abusing it to justify Sylvanas and paint Alliance as baddies.
Besides, this is my personal opinion, I dont think Anduin realises the the consequences of him letting this pass so lightly.
Which had its first rift in Broken shore scenario. If you are expecting Alliance to take actions of their wrongs then lets be fair Horde should nake amends for their own - maybe explain the situation why they had to retreat and not leave Alliance chasing for your throat, for the death of their High King.
No they dont. Think like Alliance? Why?
Saurfang believed Horde and Alliance formed bonds that are not easily broken in times of Legion, Baine was against the war. Lorâthemar Theron is only concerned about his people preservation and after Legion hell he does not want war.
Anduin came with proposal of peace and in this same quote Sylvanas dismisses this ideas for the reasons given above. Peace is not accepting one sides demands and does nit require you to think from opposite sides perspective. All the Horde leaders have their own vision of it and their reasons why its hard to achieve thats why the demands are thrown and they are negotiated and met in the midway.
If Alliance has angered Sylvanas, not Horde, with Stormheim then that could be well used against their own benefit instead of jumping over every Horde leader and starting a war in secret between Saurfang and Sylvans plan.
And for odd reasons she cannot or does not bring it up ONCE. Its Sylvanas, given the reason she will hold it against you for millenia.
Because it was Hordeâs move as agressor, taking their homeland away. In Garroshâs leadership and Sylvanas volunteering, showing how much she wanted it.
But that aside, that would have been part of negotiations from Alliance side 100%.
And this being total lie, Sylvanasâ projections and hatred. The very first example qas Arathi, where for the first time after so many years there was negotiations starting in fixing relationship between two races and it was a success talking about the reactions of both races here and not Calia incident. There was a window of fixing everything. Even Greymane has confessed that there is chance between humans and forsaken to live in peace. Admitting the forsaken are not monsters he though. Greymane saying this⌠hell what else to you want as demonstration of people wanting peace. Its different times and different people in charge of both Alliance and Horde. Sylvanas is the only one who doesnt want to move on. She says there should be no hope living in forsaken heart because its dangerous. She wants them to think they are hated and hunted. Thats the only way she keeps them by her side.
And Greymanes attack on Stormheim was not directed because they were forsaken, but because of Sylvanas position and wanting her head.
P.S. I can break down each phrase she said in that long dialogue to be lie if you cannot see them as total dog sh1t!
Attacking the factional leader is not an action that would change the relationship between factions? Then, in your opinion, give me a better example of an action that would.
Also the alliance are often baddies in the perspective of the horde. The horde is often baddies in the perspective of the alliance. That much ought to be a given.
The horde should make amends for retreating when they were being massacred? If that is a wrong doing then isnât the alliance guilty of that as well?
My assumption is you are inferring the Horde owe the alliance an explanation for retreating. To which I would reply with two things; Firstly what is the primary reason any army retreats? Occamâs Razor. If you are leaping to âSheâs betraying us!â then thatâs an assumption probably born out of personal bias. Genn has a personal bias to say the least, so while this is certainly understandable, itâs still wrong.
Secondly again you are creating a double standard. Earlier you said that Sylvanas could easily have demanded an answer before action was necessary. Now you are saying the alliance are justified in acting before asking. So which is it? Should people always ask first? In which case Genn was wrong the initial the original conflict but then Sylvanas was wrong not to open up communications of âwtfâ in response. Or is not asking acceptable? In which cause although ill-advised Gennâs original attack could be justified, but then so is Sylvanas in the aftermath that is BFA. Pick one. Donât try the double standard route, that wonât hold water.
According to the quote you linked Saurfang also didnât think that peace would last either. He doesnât disagree with her logic, he just finds her ruthlessly cold blooded. I think we can take it as red that no one wants war. The question they were discussing was; is war inevitable? Saurfang did not disagree.
Right, so we agree that that this is a factor. Awesome.
So you are saying that the reason the first thing she mentioned when asked if war was inevitable was not the time she was recently specifically targeted, hunted down and attacked. But a aggressive campaign she participated in years ago, with several world threats between then and now?
I strongly disagree. I think that she has seen that there are members of the alliance that will never let go of their grudges as was evidenced a recent, deliberate attack, who in this case were lead by Genn, as such this example would be the first thing she thought of.
Well thatâs a tricky proposition isnât it? If we operate under the notion that Sylvanas could be lying then what this the point of bringing up the quote at all? Maybe all of it is lies? Stormheim could have been the main reason but she just lied about it by omission. Itâs as plausible as your reasoning.
Either you believe the entire conversation is her lying and manipulating or none of it is. Picking and choosing select statements and claiming âthese are the liesâ is a pretty sterling example of bias. No one is without bias and I am certainly not saying I donât have mine, but come on, how is anyone suppose to hold a conversation with that kind of reasoning?
In regards to the Arathi incident the alliance brought along Calia Menethil to the meeting. For as long as the Forsaken have called Lordaeron home, the alliance have claimed they have no rights to the land. The fear being if this can be legitimised it could be used to force the forsaken from their home. Calia is the heir to the kingdom of Lordaeron and the alliance knew, that if it was known she was brought along it would go badly. So they brought her along anyway. Shocking no one, it is found out. So if you want to blame Sylvanas for that incident entirely then I just have one question; Why did the alliance knowingly provoke her in the worse possible way?
I am not saying Sylvanas isnât at fault. Of course she is. But entirely? That is the same as say no action taken can be justified in any part by the why of it. Which is all you have been doing in regards to Genn, as far as I can tell
OH This post went sideways⌠
No not to entire Horde, between Genn and his worgen and Sylvnas yes. Horde consists of different races and individuals and their interests do not always align as we can see in BFA or MoP and Cata. As far as I know and even Horde players and characters goes, disagreed with Garroshâs politics. Gilneas being part of Garroshâs campaign it was initiated by him and volunteered by Sylvanas. No other faction leader stood behind it. We both can agree how Horde feels about losing their homeland (every race has gone through that).
In WoW-s history there have been ongoing conflicts with races just as Ashenvale dispute and at the same time Orcs and Tauren bonding with Humans via Theramore. One race disagreement =/= Horde/Alliance. They would unite against the same cause if they deem that claim to be true and Sylvanasâ aggression in Gilneas was at the best very questionable, which lead to attack in Stormheim.
I am talking about the fanbase here not the lore characters and No its not true, I do not view Horde as baddies.
Not saying he was not wrong in his assumption, but nonetheless created the rift of suspicion. And whole Sylvanasâ war is based on her personal bias, do not dismiss one bias and use anotherâs against me it just doesnt work. Plus I have told you he was wrong in the attack before so I dont see why you still bring this up.
Wrong. I did not say âSylvanas could easily have demanded an answer before action was necessaryâ I said if she wanted him punished, she could have done it with ease.
And I have not stated Alliance actions were justified, I said Genn had reasoning and justification for doing so and all this mess could have been averted by simply communicating.
Both are wrong, now let us chase each other on that and wage war kill thousands on both sides in fear that none of the sides are willing to give the ground. But the fact is Alliance made first step to work towards peace, which was stomped out but Sylvanas.
[quote=âKixen-stormscale, post:275, topic:36883â]
The question they were discussing was; is war inevitable? Saurfang did not disagree.[/quote]
Saurfang was shown it was inevitable, by Dark Lady on old hatreds, which has proven him and Horde to be wrong and Alliance was not planning for war. Now its too late to discuss if it would last. The fact is there was a chance for first time after so long. Look at Saurfang now being a lil pal to Anduin.
No? Jumping on conclusion much?
She was stung by her defeat in Stormheim, there is a reason she does not mention it because she has no ground to stand.
Funny how you mention this when we are talking about Genn and ingored it when other statements Sylvanas mentioned.
And Yes, because the attack came from Worgens hatred towards her and her actions in Gilneas. Gilneas is the reason why their relationship went to craptown. And she is correct Gilneans wont move on until their Homeland is occupied. First you have a action that starts dispute Kixen and then you have results and consequences. Attack on Gilneas was the action and the attack on Stormheim was consequence.
True, from her perspective and she has been proven wrong as we have read from BtS and Genns position after Arathi. 2ndly Worgen are refugees, they have no chance to obey Stormwinds politics, Anduinâs politics. Thats why I said I dont think Anduin realised the mistake not punishing Genn first time he disobeyed him.
Not Sylvanas lying, its a lie in lore, its not true! Sylvanas does believe in her words, because she lives in hatred and vengeance, she has no compassion or love in her heart, as shown in War Crimes. Its her own projections.
Its not about bias, its about what she said to Saurfang and how all of that was not true and misguided. She has stopped developing and chose not to move on from old hatreds, while the rest of the world leaders have (Well maybe not Jaina, no one knows whats going on in her head really).
Donât see Anduin going with that memo to her.
Calia was meant to stay put and observe, if it was done to provoke Sylvanas, she would have been sitting next to Anduin and Genn, for everyone to see her and get the memo. It was a risk she took herself and got punished quite justly!
But I am not talking about Calia here. It got messy because of one stupid woman. The meeting was conducted purely to fix the bond between two race, there was a first step done by Anduin. Thatâs why I like him as he is idealistic and has still proven to world, including Genn that there is chance for peace and there is way to work towards it.
Remove Sylvanas from this equation and you get both factions working to achieve it. You see here - Sylvanas is only one character standing alone in her crusade and BFA has shown it. Hell whole BfA is about that.
Mostly, to what her actions have driven others to do is what brought us to this point in BFA.
Genn being wrong and rash in his attack of Stromheim.
Saurfang betraying Horde and getting set free by Anduin.
Baineâs dishonourable action against Horde
Anduin going to war against Sylvanas and dropping his peace mantle for now.
Sure we can blame characters for their actions and judge their characters. But dont forget their actions come in defiance of dark and amoral Sylvanas Windrunner.
Their actions pale before the atrocities Sylvanas has done and bonds she has broken. If you do not understand how she is playing this game and what she wants then you have been playing wrong game.
Nevermind sideways, itâs gone so far down, the thread met Zin-Azshari on itâs way.
Itâs currently on route to Nyâalotha.
Hold on tight, itâs done for the love of Teldressil and the reason of this horrific act Sylvanas
Had this happened prior to VolâJinâs death there would be more merit to what you are saying though, doing this during the legion campaign no matter who it was would have certainly been an exceptionally poorly timed revenge scheme.
But it didnât and that means Genn attacked the Warchief of the Horde. The highest authority and the person chosen to lead all of the horde. She would actually be remiss if she didnât give this itâs due response.
Ahh, thatâs fair enough then. Though I would honst be curious about the actual numbers. I mean look how âus and themâ the mentality is even here on the forumsâŚ
No, but everytime I try and get a straight answer you attach justifications to it. Hardly paints a convincing picture I suppose. But you did just say it, He was wrong. To which I agree, so we are in agreement at least
Well I was paraphrasing, but i see why you make that distinction. Fair enough. Then let me rephrase. It seemed to me you were criticising Sylvanasâ chosen course of action, stating this as an alternative. My point was, why wasnât the same alternative possible for Genn. But honestly now that you have said you think he was wrong most everything else is just details that Iâm not so fussed about.
You can see where I would get confused though right? Since Genn is the one who was in the Wrong.
They also made the first step to the war that is BFA so I donât really see that they can be so praised when their efforts toward peace didnât even acknowledge their attack in Stormheim. Isnât it something like; the first step towards a solution is admitting there is a problem. (?)
It was never about peace it was about a more permanent peace. Everything she said in this was probably right on the money.
Itâs possible we are talking about different things, so let me just clarify. I am saying that Stormheim is a factor in her decision to go to war. You just said that she could hold a grudge for a millennia.
That feels like we are in agreement.
I think itâs relevent on both sides, though the point here was that Stormheim was far fresher in mind than events in Cata. So would come to immediate thought more easily, right?
I am going to refer back to what I mentioned before on this;
Fair enough, all I intended to convey is that it was from her perspective and thus the reason she said what she did.
Except sheâs not lying. I already gave you a pristine example of when she was specifically targeted and hunted exactly as she stated. As you put it, thatâs in the game itâs lore.
Eh, my point here is when you using a quote picking a choosing select lines and claiming one and truth and therefore admissible and the other as lies and therefore inadmissible itâs a slippery slope. There are always inconsistencies
I doubt that Andiun himself ever has but you need only do some of the quests as a forsaken to see thatâs the common perspective amongst human enemies in those areas.
Iâm not saying you are wrong, I agree with you that Calia is to blame but letâs be clear, it was Anduinâs choice to bring her along. He chose that knowing what it would mean were she found out.
As for removing Sylvanas from the equation, sure, youâre probably right. That said how many people would recognize her and the potential threat she possessed? Not saying it would go the same way, but she was a threat and anyone from the Horde side seeing her there would view that as a statement.
p.s agreed whole heartedly about this being Anduinâs MVP moment. So nice to finally see someone treat the forsaken as actual people.
Wonât find me disagreeing with you here. No one can make anyone do anything (without magical hijinks) itâs just a question of how much blame you are willing to shift to the causes of said actions.
Once again, Sylvanas is not Horde she might have been the main figurehead, and her previous action does not oblige Horde to act on her demands.
I dont look at the most of the people, I have my opinions which I present it to you
There is no talk about Stormheim. No one is using Stormheim as reason of not concluded peace or reason of War. Stop using it as trigger point.
They have not even reached the part when one has to admit anything, it was stumped out in its very early steps.
You cant achieve long term peace if you dont work for peace in general.
At some point yes.
What happened in Cata is still disputed and the land is still occupied. If Russians occupied my lands 30 years ago I dont go and put some other occasions that happened afterwards forget it.
Plus again, Cata events caused Stormheim.
This dispute is on going and very much present at the given moment.
Greymane has no trouble with anyone but Sylvanas, who still occupies his Country. So I dont know what all that can be connected to this very scenario.
For a good reason.
Get the things right, I have not said Sylvanas lied, I said they are incorrect and they are incorrect, I can name each one of them be not true if you wish.
And I have told you before because I knew you would have brought this up.
Quests that have not been updated since Cata.
Thats very easy to say, yet she has done it over time, forcing characters to lose their sh!t and breaking the bonds, thats what she does, what she has always done!
As for blames both sides have blames but I repeat others crimes are either caused by her or combined togather fade before hers. There is no shifting the blames, all the actions have the casuses. but her actions are caused by Hatred to living and vengeance to anyone who had wronged her. She is incapable of changing she doesnt feel any positive emotions, at least thus far.
The head of state represents that state/faction. If you attack her, you attack the whole Horde. We have enough historical evidence from similar events to compare it. Asssassination attempts started many wars.
Biggest lie of the century.
Yeah sure, when you know you own leader is full of sh!t and has done some shady stuff, dont you question yourself who you are following?
No other faction leader can or is disputing his action in Stormheim, except you Sylvanas fanboys.
Said by Erevien.
The only one brushing it off like nothing was the Christie Golden approved centric characters. Sylvanas later still used it to convince Saurfang to start the war. Nuff said.
Sylvanas used Gilneas and the dispute between two races and you know where that hatred is coming from. So yeah Nuff said!