Would have been nice if they allowed server based premades for AV. That would have discouraged the need for the discord cross realm premades which wrecked the AV queue system. People joined these AV premades to counter the imbalance. But even alliance attempts at countering this imbalance, got the banhammer from Blizz. Resulting back to square one. The situation we are in now. With these imbalances as described.
i know for a fact that these premades were abusing their own teammates to get their premade members into the bgs. mainly by mass reporting anyone who were not in their premade group, and thatâs why they got punished.
Iâve already gone over the map in detail months ago so Iâm not gonna bother with all the rest again since itâs pointless to even bother with you people, but this initial fight being used as an example to be a âdisadvantageâ for the Alliance is the dumbest thing Iâve ever seen.
Just a quick fyi, having a graveyard closer to the initial fight is an advantage, not a disadvantage. âMathematicallyâ as you put it, it means Alliance players can rejoin the fight faster than the Horde can, which means Horde needs to wipe Alliance faster than Alliance does in order to win that fight, just as a pure comparison.
And that can only be achieved if the collective forces on the Horde side are âbetterâ (for lack of better word) than the Alliance side in that AV.
So letâs not count player skill, since thatâs kinda meh as an average. Letâs instead just call that even, and try to look at other factors. The desire to win is certainly a strong one, which is affected a lot by the queue times.
But thereâs another factor, which nobody else seems to ever mention. Which is shaman vs. pala.
As a straight comparison, shaman DPS is way more effective in PvP than pala DPS, while pala healing is more effective than shaman healing. However, in Classic PvP, DPS>Healing in general. The output of DPS is in general stronger than the HPS of healers in PvP, which means the value of a DPS as a 1-to-1 comparison puts DPS more valued.
Thereâs however a coefficiency value when combining X amount of DPS with Y amount of healers, the same way stats weights and break points work for an optimal mix of stats coefficiency.
But the point is, shamans overall brings more versatile offensive power than palas does, as well as higher numbers of DPS output than palas does with their DPS.
Itâs just that most people are unaware of the effects pure numbers have in PvP combat and its inherent flow.
Usually, people are only aware of the most obvious effect being âbetter gear = kill/heal faster/betterâ. But classes plays a big part in that too, and shamans does present an obvious advantage in that game of numbers.
Paladins tends to fare better in heal comparisons though, but the coefficient value of that is lower in those large scale fights.
Anyway, the AV map is fine.
And Iâm surprised nobody has called out the bogus statistics of win percentages everyone keeps relying on as âpure factsâ.
The more detailed you make these comparisons, the harder it becomes to interpret and the more player skill and amount of players matters.
But in a large scale fight like 40v40, then the more just one thing stands out, which tends to be DPS, with healing coming after that.
After that comes things like the amount of landed interrupts on each side as well as the amount of CC landing/dispelled and so on, which is why the more detailed you make it, the more player skill and amount of players matters and why itâs harder to interpret with more details.
PS:
People thinking a map decides PvP outcomes instead of the PvP itself⊠Hilarious. The lies people are willing to believe just to excuse their own shortcomings.
I played Alliance way back in the day due to friends doing so, and I can confirm this, because I canât remember losing many AVs, at all. It was the âguaranteed winâ BG for Allies⊠Well, until something changed I guess.
Have you ever tried to understand why that fight is allway just infront of the ally gy?
So you basically agree that it is easier for horde to push mid and the âbalanceâ point where the number of people rejoining the fight evens is at ally gy.
Help from the crowd question: if the number of players respawing each wave are limited what it means to have 2 of 3 mid GYs being easier to defend/access by horde?
Fifty/fifty joker: A - it means ally have it easier. B - horde gets 2x respawns so they can always easily push the âmeetingâ point at the ally gy.
Pretty much the same reason I opted for Horde when I started. No one cared about racials etc, the races were just much âcoolerâ for a RPG. For a long long time you had a pretty good idea it would be a win or a loss just by looking down the roster and seeing who was in there. If regular faces who knew what they were doing were in that bg you stood a better chance than otherwise.
Simple fact is, Horde want the AV win more due to being in queue for 30-60 mins.
Itâs a matter of motivation and player attitude.
Just look in Vanilla, the situation was reversed. Alliance had the queues, and thus were winning most AV games.
As for smaller scale BGs, Alliance have the advantage due to Paladins. Provided they are Holy, of course.
Paladins > Shamans and Horde racials. They have a far greater impact in a team environment.
For 1v1 duels and world PvP, Horde have the advantage due to better 1v1 racials.
As for PvE, who pays any attention? Everything does so quickly anyway. But again Alliance would have a slight advantage due to Paladin blessings and Human sword racials (most of the best weapons in Naxx are swords).
Horde can cap Bunker by standing on the weapon rack just below it. Thus, avoiding archers, this will also avoid the elite. Whilst Allies must always face the elite if tagging a towers flag. Exception are rogues. So, your point on advantage is
nullified
I wouldnât consider this an advantage, both have CCâs and AOE attacks. Balinda can be LoS kited.
Lol, the widdle bad wams. They are scary. All the mobs can potentially daze in AV. And honestly, it is easy to avoid the rams, just the same it is easy for us allies at avoiding your wolves.
So you admit, Icewing chokepoint is more advantageous for Horde. But again, the alliance can be kettled into the SH GY easily with no escape. Whilst the IB GY, the horde have an escape route to jump down, and that during alliance assault on IB GY, IB GY reinforcements can get into the fight very easily. And can also flank the alliance attackers who are nearing IB GY flag.
Which for the most part are non-elites and barely do any damage. Easily defeatable. Tiny in comparison to Hordes multiple advantages.
Also a disadvantage if Horde already have station flag, as you will be recalling on top of the horde AND the horde npc flag defenders. Double whammy. And horde can simultaneously defend flag and kill Marshalls, compared to Allies having to kill Warmasters AND keep an eye on the flag from any stealth cappers.
No, but you can pull the marshals one by one alot easier, as well as kite them back and fourth
Twisting this exploit into your disadvantage. Horde again have 2 very easy backdoors which only require one jump. Horde use the alliance backdoor every game. You very rarely see alliance using the horde backdoor.
If only there was two backdoors which could bypass these elites⊠Again compare SH GY with itâs single elite guarding it compared to IB GY which has 2 elites and 1 patrol elite.
Shame that all hordes advantages which are primarily at the start of the game and with the initial push/clash. Alliance donât often get to that stage. The âgiving upâ is due to a multi faceted of reasons. If the tables were turned, ie instant horde queues = wanting quick honour, abundance of bots/afkers, and major map disadvantages. Iâm sure horde would be giving up too.
Mines are not essential to the winning conditions. They are merely a bonus. Having both, 1 or none changes nothing to the core elements of the battleground. You could add the repeat quest turn ins, but no one does those. On either side.
FW doesnât have any disadvantages unlike SP GY which has COLLOSSAL disadvantages. For instant hordes ability to create a horseshoe surround frm highground camping the spawn point. Having healers and range in advantageous high points. And then at the flag/bridge Horde can again block the only exit with ease. So saying FW has no advantages is a little rich compred to the multiple disadvantages that SP Has.
And yet your Cave is near FW GY allowing for a regular stream of horde to FW GY and being a thorn in Alliance. Also, that it is 55 seconds for alliance to get from their Cave to SH GY, whilst your Cave is 25 seconds away from IB GY. Giving horde the advantage more often than not in the majority of games. Alliance have to get through the horde, and the obstacles before getting to that late stage where we magically recieve all these so called advantages.
The intention was not abuse. The intention was to gain honour and have successful AV runs, being 100% on the same page, being co-ordinated, following a plan and leader, not suffering from the cons of instant queues. I agree the premades could be toxic at times, discriminating 60% mounters etc. Ballsing up the AV queue system was an unintended consequence. Which i agree needed to be resolved.
Iâm sorry i missed your former post out of a collection of 2000+ posts⊠Please forgive me for i have sinned.
So itâs a disadvantage that horde can pass mid field sooner than alliance and put immediate pressure on an alliance GY (which coincidentally can create an immediate choke point at IW bunker if horde take). The alliance has core options, run left (trying to bypass horde, meaning fewer alliance at SH GY), go right (again, same as going left), or hold back and defend SH GY (which is the scenario which you describe). Again, becuase horde are across the mid field before alliance, you have starting dominance and can influence and control what alliance are doing. As long as the starter cave is where it is, allies will always be on the backpeddle reactive position whilst horde are on the forward proactive position.
We are talking map design, not player mechanics. Which is why i never bring up horde racials etc. And again this is more RNG, there will be AV battles where there are few or none of one class, and others where there are loads of a specific class. But the map stays the same. The makeup of player classes, ability etc varies game for game.
I never said the map is the single factor of a win. I am just stating that the AV map leans more advantageously towards the horde. No one complains about AB or WSG map design becuase they are mirrored.
Yea, i chuckled
Yea we didnât know what the hell we were doing. AV matched when i played those 15 years ago lasted hours, few even days becuase people focused on fighting one another rather than capping the various objectives. We didnât fully understand the honour ranking system. Its the same how we steamroll raid dungeons today when we struggled back in the past.
Also, my server back then Runetotem was dominated 3 to 1 alliance to horde. Which gave us longer queue times than horde, so the tables were turned, we were more inclined to turtle whilst horde were more inclined for faster games. All these little tricks like rogues despawning archers at towers, backdoor exploits, min maxing, kiting elites etc. We know now that having such long games are detrimental to a players ability to rank/gain rep.
IAll these âlittle reasonsâ mount up to give a wider explanation of why something is like it is.
Why the wall of text? Maybe becuase i want to write something substantive and possible informative or at least throught provoking?
You seem to gravely misunderstand the wall of text on purpose.
You also âconvenientlyâ skipped the text just under what you quoted.
Meaning Alliance, if theyâre âbetterâ (again for lack of better word) than the Horde side in that clash, then theyâll be at a greater advantage than the Horde due to the closer GY.
Even in a somewhat even matchup, a closer gy is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Because reinforcements arrives faster, which gives more time for Alliance to wipe the Horde in that initial fight.
You do know everything you just said was all based on the assumption that Alliance canât win the initial clash even with a closer GY for faster replenishments of reinforcements, as well as a bunker and the lieutenants close by to help you in that clash?
You lose the BG when you lose in the PvP fights. Itâs easier for Horde to snowball once that mid clash has been lost by the Alliance than it is for Alliance to snowball Horde, but itâs beyond stupid to think the alliance side of the map somehow favors Horde to be fighting in.
Thats 50% in total or Horde PUGs vs Alliance premade? Because if its the first case, your argument is weak.
I believe itâs both map and attitude. After SH is taken, I canât find Alliance players. I see maybe 20-25 people. Where are the rest?
The fact that Horde chose to win whatever the cost is (time wise), and the fact we donât want our towers to be destroyed or Galvangar to be killed, shows a mentality difference. And not only the long queues is the reason for sure.
There is âFOR THE HORDE!â but there isnât "FOR THE ALLIANCE!â. I sense that Alliance players are more privates than a member of a faction.
Lame company. Canât even fix some issues in AV, to make people feel better.
2020 blizzard didnt do proper server balance on factions, we end up every server being horde dominated and u ask why alliance people are complaining.Ok.My question is why in 2004 that didnt happend.Am waiting answer.
Nope, never based it on the assumption that we always lose that first clash. I merely stated what happens.
Tell me when there has ever been the situation in Classic where Horde are just passing IB GY/Tower and there is a large host of alliance players already on the horde side the field of strife, making a B-line for the horde.
It never happens, why? Becuase the Horde Cave is 30 seconds closer. Why did Blizz move the cave back in TBC? Was it a response of this blatant advantage the Horde at the games start?
You talk about more frequent spawns and reinforcements at that clash at Balinda. But cast aside the very issue which is the fact that Horde are entering the Alliance side of the map just as when the Alliance are just passing SH GY in their own territory.
Like i said before. With the existing cave placement, horde will be on the proactive offensive straight out the gate, whilst Alliance will ALWAYS be on the reactive at the start of each game.
Sure there have been plenty of occasions where the Alliance have managed to push through. But the maps set up creates more obstacles than what the horde have to push through. Iâm not saying there arenât instances of disadvantage for the horde.
But if we look at it mathematically, and weigh all the occasions, then it is clearly tipping in favour for the horde.
Humans, dorfs, gnomes and elves ARE DE GUD GUYS AMIRITE?! Not dem smelly orcsies and trolls! Only edgy bois wanna be the bad guys! We be da gud guys! And dem sexy nelfs and humies! We donât want dem stinky cows and bagsofbones!
We were younger, and not familiar with benefits such as racials or late game meta like we do now.
hahah i remember when Alliance still could premade in AV at the beginning of av release⊠they came here to forums and was talking about how they rekt hordes even a apes guy was here talking about it everydayâŠ
haha Alliance = clowns with downs
My 50p! On alliance, if there is no lead, everyone tries to rush ibgy from the get go, which splits 60% and 100% mounts straight away, as well as horde picking people off while trying to pass. So while pretty much the whole alliance raid is trying to push, this leaves sh gy open to cap. Alliance fail the push, horde cap sh gy flag and hey presto turtle game Alliance needs more people with balls to lead but donât blame them for not, when you have people who would rather dish out abuse then input constructive thoughts towards winning.
i alwaysed played Alliance Before⊠now when im playing horde bgâs are so much more fun⊠we had a couple of noobs giving up vs premades at the start but they probably quit the game by now cause we laughed at them and made them into fools
Please forgive me for i have sinned.
even a apes guy was here talking about it everydayâŠ
That you say is not an answer of what action a gaming company should have done to some servers in faction imbalance problem.