When will the alliance bias end

None of them belonged to the Grand Alliance though. Arthas was never a ruler among the Alliance of Lordaeron and it had split when he became the Lich King’s pawn. As for Kael’thas, his father had cut ties with the Alliance of Lordaeron after the Second War, which is what kickstarted its fall. He was never a leader in the Alliance, old or new, and if he’s linked with a faction it would be the Horde. He was still alive and hadn’t revealed his treachery yet when the deal between the Blood Elves and the Horde was made, he knew what was going on and didn’t oppose it.

:point_up:

It’s what defines their importance to the overall story since the players encounter them more often than non leaders, whether it’s in game or in the books. The Horde’s losses on that front are clearly higher than the Alliance, there’s no refuting it.

And that’s problematic because Thrall’s Horde in W3 was better. Races of the Horde should be allied because they share common values and goals, not because they are considered (or treated) like unworthy creatures by the Alliance. That’s a serious problem with the Horde and what explains that they had to rebel against their leader twice in the WoW timeline already. The writers do not care about making it a cohesive group, they use that as the weakness of this faction since they do not think or act like one and the story shows that it’s not a positive thing in the writers’ minds. They tried to pin the issues of the Horde on the warchief position instead of who had it and replaced it with a council, but the position of high king of the Alliance works the exact same way the warchief did and that’s not a problem to them. They keep using the lamest writing techniques to make the Horde as bad and dangerous as the W2 one, and when they want to make it good it’s through characters close to the Alliance. This faction still exists because the Alliance allowed it too and it’s too obvious, we often get reminded of that in game. Realistically, an organization such as the Horde would have been dismantled in the real world long ago.

To be fair, Anduin didn’t do a thing when they were torturing Alliance citizens too. I thought this side of him would be explored in Shadowlands but no, Anduin in game can only do morally incorrect things when he is mentally controlled and « Shadows Rising » apparently doesn’t exist in the heads of the lore devs :crazy_face:

But Rexxar isn’t a spy from the Horde equivalent of the SI:7 unless I’m mistaken. Shaw is and the Horde leaders know it. It’s just as ridiculous as Velonara knowing that the Alliance player is using a disguise to help Calia in the new quest line and tells them straight that she doesn’t care. Like, in which way shape or form does that make sense?

I didn’t get to speak to him much, but there was always a lot of thought in his posts and he always made good points even if I didn’t always agree with him.

True, it’s just that the devs of this game tend to not follow what they say themselves when it’s about troops or the amount of civilians left of a people that has been decimated. The fact that enough soldiers of both factions were still alive to fight at the beginning of BFA is ridiculous when we know they almost all have been killed during Legion. Like you said, it’s only before Anduin released Saurfang that Greymane told him that the few soldiers in front of them were the only ones remaining, and that they’d have to enroll farmers next. The Void Elves were only a small group of exiled Blood Elves on a floating rock yet there were enough of us to be « considerable allies to the Alliance war efforts » according to Alleria and so on. It makes no sense because Blizz doesn’t follow the rules they set themselves.

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Practically speaking the only way to deal with that is to never put Aliance, in the position where they could do that. (and vice versa)

Also both instances were wierd. At the end of MoP, where Varian was talking out of his rear end given the characters present he would have gotten gigawrecked, if he actually tried something. In the same vein 8.2.5 said that Sylvanas’s loyalists were basically all still fresh and the only force able to contend with N’zoth so again the Aliance had bugger all to work with, if it came down to actually forcing the Horde into anything.

Or the horde like Erevien want to- but that won’t happen before gameplay reason.

And here’s the catch: because this the horde can start war over and over again and must no fear consequences because they can’t dismantle the fraction while Alliance is pretty pissed of that.

In reality, like mentioned by the void elf the hirde would be completely tear apart that they wont ever again a threat.

Germany shoud in Churchill plamn transfom to a agricultural land, and the other radical plan- the morgenthau plan a great part of the people exterminated that the German race should disappear.

Wrathion said the Alliance would have never actually be able to dismantle the Horde, even right after MoP actually where they had a big advantage.

Indeed there’s a dialogue of Wrathion (with a Pandaren I think) saying if the faction war had continued after Siege of Orgrimmar, the Alliance maybe -just maybe- would have been able to conquer Thunder Bluff too, but suffering such horrifically high losses that at that point they wouldn’t be able to touch Lordaeron and Quel’thalas, so the Forsaken and Blood Elves would still be safe.

So the Horde as a whole wouldn’t be dismantled.

Then the partisans in the resistance of the Orcs, Trolls and Tauren would keep fighting, even just hit-and-run tactics would be very effective on Horde territory. With such heavy losses it’s impossible that the Alliance would be able to hold Orgrimmar and Thunder Bluff for long anyway. Eventually the Orcs and Tauren would reclaim them, or they would still live as nomads in the Barrens without a Capital anyway (both Orcs and Tauren were used to it, looking at their past history). But eventually an armistice would happen anyway, so no faction would be dismantled.

Yes, and that’s a pretty bad thing to base our emotional investment on. We shouldn’t support that. We should want likeable characters that we care about, because our characters interact with them, not a labe that says “this one is important, you should care now!”.

I don’t remember any of this during BFA, but if you’re referring to his angry speech during MoP after the Siege of Orgrimmar he confirms that the Alliance could have dismantled the Horde if Varian had wanted to. That’s why he was mad at him and decided to take matters into his own hands to go back in time to find a united army to defend Azeroth during the return of the Legion. That plan failed miserably because Garrosh wasn’t trustworthy, but that’s what he intended to do.

I see that what I’m saying is confusing you guys although I’m not sure why. I’m not talking about in game instances, but a hypothetical organized attack against the Horde to put a final end to this faction instead of waiting for it to do something negative again and stopping it again. Given how prone Horde leaders were to rebel against their warchiefs and the proximity of several of them with the Alliance, it’s definitely doable.

Which ironically lead that his vision come true, but he was the one who cause this by his actions, a self prophecy.

It depends when he said this precisely. Not sure if it’s the same dialogue, but I recall he only talks about them being able to take Thunder Bluff and with such heavy losses they wouldn’t be able to dismantle the Horde anyway.

Which is realistic as I said the Horde rebellion would never stop fighting, especially in Kalimdor. An armistice would be reached and the Horde would still stand (depending also from how many Alliance and Horde leaders would have survived in SoO, of course)

His speech starts at 0:39 min

He says that the fighting would have lasted for another year and the Alliance would have won.

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Oh it seems you are right…I recalled the huge losses and Thunder Bluff part but not the rest :sweat_smile: I reckon it was different in the first version of the dialogue, then.

still, it’s his opinion of course. The Horde might not surrender as a whole with two capitals and kingdoms still standing in the EK. (Blood Elves wouldn’t join the Alliance after the Purge of Dalaran).

And with such heavy losses there’s no guaranteed the Alliance would stand united, much less dominate the world as he talks about anyway. Both lore-wise and gameplay-wise we know after a faction falls, the other must follow too (after the victory of the Second War, the Alliance took a huge hit with Lordaeron in the Third for example)

Well, tauren had god ties with the alliance via night eves and druids, an peace would be likely.
Goblins are only interested in money, with enough you get the goblins out of the war.
Blood elves, yes, after dalaran incident the relations get hurt but with few people and knowing on the long run they cant stand the meetgrinder they make white peace, i mean, the was so close to make the Italian /Bulgarian/Romanian move.

The only real resistance would be the orcs, undead and trolls, but last one are so few, they couldn’t hold out long.
And then they stood against the United alliance.

They would have kept fighting until they were ultimately defeated. If not, they could have stopped fighting for the Horde without joining the Alliance either, even if two year old Wrathion didn’t think of that.

There were no dissensions within the Alliance so they would have stayed united, but their losses would have been a problem to fight back the Legion.

Except that the Alliance of Lordaeron was only formed to fight the Horde back during the Second War and some of its leaders were reluctant to join it from the beginning. Many members left at the end of the conflict and it barely existed anymore when the Third War happened. A united Alliance like it had been during the Second War would have resisted longer.

The Grand Alliance was never shown to have any leader that didn’t want to be part of it. Until Tyrande got mad at Anduin for not doing what she wanted during BFA and the Night Elves were on the verge of leaving the Alliance, all the races within it were best buds and followed the Wrynns blindly.

If Wrathion says the Alliance would take enormous losses against the Tauren after a single year, how many losses do you think they would be willing to take out the rest of the Horde in order to dismantle it?

Blood Elves and Forsaken are two of the more destructive races if they really want to go all-out. Even after SoO they would still have the Blight (without restrictions), the Val’kyrs, Mana Bombs, Blood Golems… an armistice would be made, at least in the EK. in Kalimdor the Orcs, Trolls and Tauren might keep fighting. Them surrendering to the Alliance is extremely unlikely even without the capitals…remember…Lok’tar Ogar :sweat_smile:

Don’t forget that the anger of the Blood Elves was rightly aimed at Jaina and not Wrynn. As I said before, Blizz tends to forget that they have lost 90% of their population, they’re not as strong and numerous as they once were and would have reasonably favored their survival rather than dying fighting Wrynn when their beef was with Jaina. All Blood Elves do not have the destructive mentality warlocks have.

The Undead were more of a threat, but it’s not like the Alliance was solely comprised of humans either.

It’s not just because I’m a warlock, but under the right conditions I think Blood Elves would use their most destructive stuff, if push come to shove. The Alliance threatening Quel’thalas is one of these conditions, of course.

They can’t make a separate peace for the Purge of Dalaran and because they would be considered betrayers by the Forsaken until they are still in the Horde…yes, they had more beef with Jaina than Varian, but Varian never apologized for the Purge of Dalaran, nor punish Jaina in any way or pay reparations to the Sunreavers. So the point still stands…

That’s what vice resa means, yes.

That’s largely for gameplay and branding reasons. The simplest way to get out of that situation is to not get into it by never positioning either faction to be able to do it.

If we’re taking the gloves off, without plot armor then the Aliance would have it extremely rough. Blighted water supplies and food supplies, while any major troop movements, settlements or vehicles would get blown to hell. All that would take is a few relatively small strike squads to do stupendous amounts of damage. The only thing Aliance has that comes even close is the 1 off Gnomish nuke, which is more likely to be replicated by the lepper gnomes working for the Forsaken anyway.

Like yes, they could launch a successful campaign and even take a capital or two, but at what cost? Opposed landings are extremely costly, which would force them to land somewhere around Duskwallow Marsh or have another crack at Gilneas, if you give them the benefit of the doubt, if not they’d have to go around Kalimdor to Darkshore or have to fight over the fickly bridge between Arathi and Loch Modan or was it the Wetlands? (… i remember the geography not the name of the zone xD)

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The Vindicaar can literally nuke any Horde capital. That thing’s fire force exceeds those of a mana bomb. The Horde doesn’t have anything that comes close to this engine if I’m not mistaken. BFA wouldn’t have had the time to unfold if the Alliance had used it, that’s why the devs didn’t even bother remembering its existence. It doesn’t please me to say this, but we have to be honest in this conversation.

The Vindicaar is overrated…a mana bomb is POTENTIALLY more powerful, as proven by the Mana Bomb who destroyed Theramore :sweat_smile: the Blood Elves just need to replace the Focusing Iris with another powerful enough artifact or source of magic (the Sunwell itself might be enough).

And that’s assuming the Horde siege engines cannot hit the Vindicaar actually. They can hit Teldrassil from a huge distance like the coast of Darkshore so it’s not out of the realm of the possibilities, to be fair…

And can be made by the Alliance too. The only thing stopping them for doing that is moral principles, otherwise they’d use mana bombs, the Vindicaar and the other fire power they have to end the Horde if its survivors didn’t let the dismantlement happen.

I think it’s the Kirin Tor that can make them, and they are more like mana granades rather than true Sin’dorei mana bombs. But even if the Alliance made them, their use would be heavily restricted of course.

(and just another reason to dislike them for “stealing” from Quel’thalas…first the Mana Bombs, then the Void Elves, then what? :sweat_smile: