Where Are the Strong Male Figures in the Latest Expansion?

[Dayul-grim-batol]

Yeah, he’s blizz’s incase we start losing too many fans break glass. He will come back and will be evil at first working with the titans then will betray them for the greater good. Some weak slop like that

@Demeriel-argent-dawn

Maybe I’m in the minority here but I didn’t enjoy what they did with Illidan in Legion.

Personally my only issue with him, is the same issue with the writing for alot of characters. They only write shallow storylines and never go into the depth of the characters which prevents true development or growth.

For example,
Illidan is entitled, and lot of the time and he’s got a fragile ego. Ultimately hubris is his fatal flaw but they never really examine that properly through the story he always ends up coming out the otherside ahead even though we could examine this part of his personality and let him grow.

Generally that’s the issue WoW’s writing team have as a whole imo. They fail to write good character growth because they write from a childish view of good and evil. The concept of context is lost to the writers. Established characters, go from shady to paragons of moral righteousness, it feels jarring and out of left field, un earned. When the new characters just flip sides it’s equally jarring, Vyranoth… Same as Anduin’s trauma, Alleria cosplaying Tyrande. It’s all off screen development and changes which gives the audience whiplash.

Moira betrayed her people, got people killed, was involved in a plot to kill her dad, the player does a 5m storyline with the dark iron which functionally resolved by, we’re sorry. Now suddenly she’s the beloved daughter. Why? don’t get me wrong I have no issue with her as a lead but it needs to make sense to the established character. Instead we get, she’s totally chill now and awesome guise. Don’t think about the stuff she did in the past, that’s never really be resolved in a meaningful way.

Look at the night elves and Gilneans just being super chill with the forsaken it’s ok they only tried to genocide both your people in the last 10 years one after the other. We’re all friends now. Again if you want to do a story that ends in forgiveness that’s fine but it’s not a single bloody questline worth of content. Forgiveness takes time.

Take Uther and Jaina, when they discuss Arthas, they say things like I failed him by not stopping him XYZ. No they failed him because they left, they couldn’t stomach what had to be done. Uther was left with a moral dilemma and fled to let someone else take on the burden, all so his own self image was safe. Jaina couldn’t stomach what to be done. Not that you can blame her, she’s functionally a book worm at this point she’s been around a battle or two but not to the same degree as Arthas and Uther, so it’s understandable that she wouldn’t be able to handle the situation, she was also young.

You don’t have to agree that this was the way they failed Arthas, you can believe that they failed him by not stopping him. However, the above scenario, is never brought up as a concept in the story, the characters never waiver in the idea that what Arthas did was wrong simple because it was horrific. So they never explore anything other than surface level emotion which makes growth stagnant.

If you feel like you failed someone, you as a person go through in your head all the scenarios in which things could have been different how you could have maybe helped them. Some sensible all the way to absurd, it’s a very human thing to do. They don’t let the characters ever do this, goodies do good, is the only moral basis the nuw writing team follow.

Sorry for the WoT

[Demeriel-argent-dawn]

@Dayul-grim-batol

Personally my only issue with him, is the same issue with the writing for alot of characters. They only write shallow storylines and never go into the depth of the characters which prevents true development or growth.

You may have too high of an expectation when it comes to Blizzard writing.

Warcraft 3 TFT was peak for them in terms of writing. It had plenty shades of grey. But this was likely due to the fact that being an RTS With a single player campaign allowed for much more flexibility compared to the MMO format which must be a nightmare to manage. I get the feeling they are playing it safe and making sure the player is almost constantly on the right side so to speak along with certain NPCs.

@Dayul-grim-batol

They fail to write good character growth because they write from a childish view of good and evil. The concept of context is lost to the writers. Established characters, go from shady to paragons of moral righteousness, it feels jarring and out of left field, un earned.

Yeah, I think there’s some truth to this. Black and white is easier to manage considering we’re dealing with an MMO here and I’d imagine trying to present the same conflict or whatever from different points of view the way they did in their RTS would require a whole lot more effort and resources.

One problem with writing for WoW must be the fact that the writers are likely forced to maintain a certain status quo between the Horde and Alliance. If one side wins too many battles or gets too many shiny new cities the other side will inevitably complain. Trying to maintain some sort of superficial symmetry between the two factions just to keep players happy must be a pretty exhausting balancing act and thats likely scratching the surface of the logistical issues the writing team has to deal with.

But that’s probably all the sympathy they’ll get from me in this thread.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Sugalumps-twisting-nether

First off all we don’t want different, we want a return to form.

It will never be like that again. That time is over and gone.
Classic is there if you want that kind of stuff.

@Sugalumps-twisting-nether

And not once have I mentioned anything about faerin that’s aself tell on your part that you think I dislike her

Oh that wasn’t a personal remark; just an overal theme in threads like these.

@Sugalumps-twisting-nether

but they do that for everyone now sadly cause of the art change over the years.

The art is SO much better overal than it used to be.
Again; Classic waiting for you.

@Enluu-argent-dawn

I absolutely would do anything to have Daddy Illidan back.

His return has been teased by Metzen.

@Dayul-grim-batol

They only write shallow storylines and never go into the depth of the characters which prevents true development or growth.

It has ALWAYS been like that for Warcraft.
An RTS or an MMORPG aren’t the types of games to go in depth generally. Warcraft certainly hasn’t (an exception would be the books - but never in the games themselves).

So why is it an issue NOW? And not before, when this was also the case?

[Hollowsoup-hyjal]

I’d actually argue that W3 was fairly black & white. Arthas in his human campaign was good and slowly moved towards evil. Arthas in his Undead campaign was evil. Thrall in his campaign was good. Tyrande/Malfurion in their campaign were good.

What made them nicely written in my opinion is the fact that characters felt able and competent leaders that made decisions that felt right from their own point on view, which contributed to their character’s uniqueness. Thrall was ready to make peace with the other races unlike the other orcs, but he kept the orcs’ interest first, which is why he decimated the humans on Theramore. The same can be said about Arthas, but this ultimately lead him to become the Lich King, despite initially wanting to help his people, because of how fate turned out to be.

Nowadays, all the good characters feel the same to me, they are all pseudo-wise, very soft and will avoid violence at all costs, and will only hurt the chaotic evil, which does not make sense in a world that much torn with conflict. They feel much less like fantasy characters and much more like self-inserts of the average salaryman’s views on morality in today’s society. The races also feel very lackluster, they are feel the same nowadays.

[Demeriel-argent-dawn]

@Hollowsoup-hyjal

I’d actually argue that W3 was fairly black & white. Arthas in his human campaign was good and slowly moved towards evil. Arthas in his Undead campaign was evil. Thrall in his campaign was good. Tyrande/Malfurion in their campaign were good.

I get what you’re saying but please note I said WC3 “TFT” not just WC3.

The last fight between Arthas and Illidan was certainly not entirely black and white, both were evil. Arthas was the lesser evil in the scenario because Illidan would have ushered the second coming of the Legion before Azeroth was prepared for another invasion.

edit: the alliance / blood elf campaign was also about self preservation and didn’t exactly have the whole good vs evil vibe to it. Arguably more evil than good since Illidan convinced Kael’thas to serve the Legion alongside him.

[Hollowsoup-hyjal]

Yes, that’s my point, they were stories centered around leaders of race first and foremost. Good and evil had nothing to do with how the story went, contrary to today where the story revolved around good vs bad, with “good good evil bad let’s all be friends” vibes.

I really like Kael’thas campaign specifically for that by the way, absolutely everything he did was justified from his side and you can see it while playing his campaign. His people was exploited and then betrayed by the humans, so he went with the nagas who claimed they knew this Illidan guy who could help him save his people.

[Moltensage-turalyon (Moltensage)]

@Valthydra-pozzo-delleternità

Rightfully so. The very idea of comparing the two is absurd. The USSR payed a price in roughly 20 million live lost fighting against fascism, and you’re here saying they’re the same thing.

Very convenient to ignore Communism as a whole. If you look at Chairman Mao death toll it’s at least 80 million.
My point is simply Socialism and Communism is the more dangerous ideology.

@Valthydra-pozzo-delleternità

As if first-person accounts don’t carry biases, personal opinions and interests. This is thought in the first lesson of any history class. Also, I very much doubt that many living people remember the NEP, but we can still know a lot about it through the power of written language and comparative analysys of historical sources.

You are mistaken. Those who actually lived through it can tell you what life under Communism is like.

The Russians are forced to be strong as a people. They can be strong outside of the Soviet Union. Since WW2 Americans treated Russia as an enemy to be crushed beneath their boots.

False history’s can be written but a true account of history always remains. No matter who is in power.
Like the Woke reboots or reimaginings. People still have physics copies of the games before they were “adapted for the modern audience”.

[Mannar-stormscale]

This is absolutely 100% correct.

You understand what is going on, and I appreciate that.

[Dayul-grim-batol]

@Tah-earthen-ring

It has ALWAYS been like that for Warcraft.
An RTS or an MMORPG aren’t the types of games to go in depth generally. Warcraft certainly hasn’t (an exception would be the books - but never in the games themselves).

So why is it an issue NOW? And not before, when this was also the case?

It has not always been like this, Varian was displayed as morally virtuous at times and then at other time a warmongering ###hole. The Orcs fundementally believed the strong lead and the weak follow their entire culture is based on the strength of arms. Physical violence is an accepted part of their culture. This has been completely destroyed over time. Now the Humans believe in peace love and hugs, the Orcs are basically green humans.

This is because their writers are incapable of writing a story where two side have opposing world views but don’t always have to rip each other to shreds. Or can at the very least tolerate each others presence. So instead they neuter all the story lines, take away any real depth because that requires higher order thinking and we can’t have that in a storyline. Arthas is a great example of this because it’s a very good moral dilemma that the fans can sit there and go, who is in the wrong, Arthas or Uther. As in should Uther have stayed helped Arthas maybe he would not have been tricked by Malganis, should Arthas have listened to Uther and let the zombies lose and dealt with the consequences later?

You can’t really have these moments anymore, because goodies do kind things. So instead of putting the city to the torch they would have refused, then when the reality of a large city that’s been overun with zombies and is likely to destory the entire continent, starts to become to significant to obscure. The writers will add in a magical mcguffin that falls into the characters lap which saves the day and we can all be friends.

That one arc with Arthas, is literally responsible for this game even existing, and you would never see a storyline of that level of depth, bare in mind it’s not even that deep of a plot, just a basic moral dilemma, but it’s practically the Marianas trench compared to the game today.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Dayul-grim-batol

It has not always been like this, Varian was displayed as morally virtuous at times and then at other time a warmongering ###hole.

But it was never ‘deep’. No growth or development; he was basically always the same guy: Basically good, but with a short fuse.

@Dayul-grim-batol

The Orcs fundementally believed the strong lead and the weak follow their entire culture is based on the strength of arms. Physical violence is an accepted part of their culture. This has been completely destroyed over time.

No it hasn’t. It’s just been nuanced a bit with shamanism more.

@Dayul-grim-batol

This is because their writers are incapable of writing a story where two side have opposing world views but don’t always have to rip each other to shreds. Or can at the very least tolerate each others presence.

Which they didn’t do before either; so my point stands: Warcraft has never had that.

@Dayul-grim-batol

Arthas is a great example of this because it’s a very good moral dilemma that the fans can sit there and go, who is in the wrong, Arthas or Uther. As in should Uther have stayed helped Arthas maybe he would not have been tricked by Malganis.

It’s not a great example. It’s actually a pretty simple and boring story.
That’s not good writing.

@Dayul-grim-batol

That one arc with Arthas, is literally responsible for this game even existing, and you would never see a storyline of that level of depth, bare in mind it’s not even that deep of a plot, just a basic moral dilemma, but it’s practically the Marianas trench compared to the game today.

We’ll see. I think there will be plenty of moral dilemmas to come; especially for light-alligned characters.

[Baernayd-argent-dawn]

I’ve noticed the plot went super family friendly with dragonflight exp. The war within is trying to push a bit aside that “we need to work together as happy friends hihihi” guideline but it’s still soooo distant from the basic wow lore. I don’t mind Alleria, I don’t mind Moira, but all is focused on a plane of “morally acceptable”, which is not very consistent with the wow setting and its playerbase. This is where all the discomfort comes from, imo

[Dayul-grim-batol]

@Tah-earthen-ring

But it was never ‘deep’. No growth or development; he was basically always the same guy: Basically good, but with a short fuse.

But he talks about it, he recognises he is not the best and that his hot headed temper is a problem. I believe there’s a moment in MoP where he listens to Anduin and shows mercy when normally he would have responded with violence. Varian isn’t trying to be always good, he was a character with flaws, which makes him interesting. Today the goodies have to be awesome and good at everything they do.

@Tah-earthen-ring

No it hasn’t. It’s just been nuanced a bit with shamanism more.

They removed all the beating the peons to make them work stuff.

@Tah-earthen-ring

Which they didn’t do before either; so my point stands: Warcraft has never had that.

They literally did this constantly, putting aside the differences to work towards the greater good, then instead of trying to stabilise a peace between the two different factions they just homogenised the culture so everyone acts like humans.

@Tah-earthen-ring

It’s not a great example. It’s actually a pretty simple and boring story.
That’s not good writing.

And yet shows more depth than any of the recent plotlines.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Dayul-grim-batol

Varian isn’t trying to be always good, he was a character with flaws, which makes him interesting. Today the goodies have to be awesome and good at everything they do.

Have you not been following Anduin’s storyline? He’s flawed.
Have you not been following Magni’s storyline? He’s flawed.
Have you not been following Faerin’s storyline? She’s flawed.

And that’s just three examples; there’s many more.
Your claim simply isn’t true.

@Dayul-grim-batol

They removed all the beating the peons to make them work stuff.

The world isn’t the same anymore. You’re going to have to deal with that.
There’s a lot more sensitivity for some themes now.

@Dayul-grim-batol

And yet shows more depth than any of the recent plotlines.

Agree to disagree.

It just sounds to me like you simply want more violence.
Violence does not make something good by default.

[Dayul-grim-batol]

@Tah-earthen-ring

Have you not been following Anduin’s storyline? He’s flawed.
Have you not been following Magni’s storyline? He’s flawed.
Have you not been following Faerin’s storyline? She’s flawed.

And that’s just three examples; there’s many more.
Your claim simply isn’t true.

Did you not read the entire post I put 3 separate times disecting the issues with Anduin and how he’s a 2 dimensional coward character?

@Tah-earthen-ring

The world isn’t the same anymore. You’re going to have to deal with that.
There’s a lot more sensitivity for some themes now.

And out comes the truth, the very crux of the matter. This modern ideology where you have to inject your real world feelings into a plot. Can’t have the song Prince Ali say he has slaves that’s offensive to my modern sensibilities. The inability to step out of yourself and into a fantasy world, where your world beliefs no longer apply, because this isn’t your world. Taking away smacking peons immediately changes the culture of the Orcs, they’re no longer who they are, brutal, savage, might makes right but with a code. With a believe in honour and service. Completely different to what the humans of the world beleive.

@Tah-earthen-ring

Agree to disagree.

It just sounds to me like you simply want more violence.
Violence does not make something good by default.

Care to give any example of a plot with any sort of moral quandary. The closet I can think of is maybe some of the infinite dragonflight stuff, maybe.

Sylvannas as much as shadowlands writing was bad. They had a real chance of exploration with Slyvannas, she hated Arthas so much, she held onto that hate so tightly that she turned into the thing she hated. They could have had some real development for once, instead it was. O no my soul was actually in two and that was the bad Sylvannas, none of my actions were the real me, all the genocides I tried to commit are all evil sylvannas’s fault and she’s gone now guys. Can’t blame the other members of the horde.

No I don’t want just more violence, what I want is characters to behave in rational ways. The Gileans have no reason to forgive the undead, nor do the night elves. But they have, almost instantly, less than a decade since the attempted genocide of their peoples. That doesn’t mean it has to be war and violence, it can be alot of posturing dialogue, anger and frustration where other members of the alliance step in to temper them. Maybe the Gileans and Night elfs temporarily leave the alliance. There’s a multitude of options they just did none of them and said, instant friends becasue they sowy and it was the bad evil Sylvannas that made us do it.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Dayul-grim-batol

disecting the issues with Anduin and how he’s a 2 dimensional coward character?

And I disagree with your assessment.
He’s no such thing imo.

Besides; you were talking about flawed characters there.
I gave examples of such characters.

@Dayul-grim-batol

And out comes the truth, the very crux of the matter. This modern ideology where you have to inject your real world feelings into a plot. Can’t have the song Prince Ali say he has slaves that’s offensive to my modern sensibilities.

It is how it is.
Do I think there’s too much sensitivity? Hell yeah.
But I’m not going to let it ruin things for me.

@Dayul-grim-batol

Taking away smacking peons immediately changes the culture of the Orcs, they’re no longer who they are, brutal, savage, might makes right but with a code. With a believe in honour and service.

They still have that code, just without a few aspects.
Don’t let such small things ruin it for you; that is YOU being over-sensitive.

@Dayul-grim-batol

Care to give any example of a plot with any sort of moral quandary.

Not really. I don’t pay that much attention to that sort of thing.
As I’ve shared many times on this forum: I have always thought WoW’s writing was rather bad, so I stopped being invested in that.
I like WoW for other reasons; the story just has to be ‘okay’ for me, to remain happy. And the only time when the story actively bothered me was in Shadowlands. I was really close to just walking away.

Even stuff like the ‘friendship is power’ stuff at the end of the ‎Amirdrassil raid; I didn’t like it, felt it was cringe inducing. But, it didn’t bother me as much as the actual lore they did in Shadowlands. For me it killed that universe; I no longer care about the big universal stuff.

@Dayul-grim-batol

O no my soul was actually in two and that was the bad Sylvannas, none of my actions were the real me

I actually blame players for that. The writers felt forced to do something like that because she’s such a beloved character with a big part of the playerbase (I don’t belong to that part; I thought she was cool in early WoW because I was an edgy young adult - as soon as I got a bit of life experience I could never look at her the same again and she was just boring to me, and really overused).

@Dayul-grim-batol

The Gileans have no reason to forgive the undead, nor do the night elves. But they have, almost instantly, less than a decade.

Almost a decade is NOT instantly.
Was it not portrayed the right way in that Gilneas quest? For sure. They should have handled that in another way. This felt way too easy and even though lots of time had passed, it didn’t feel like that to us the players because it was never properly handled over the years.

[Valthydra-pozzo-delleternità]

I gave you objective data in front of your random numbers and anecdotal evidence, if you’re just going to ignore it, there’s no point in discussing any further.

[Deecee-kazzak]

by that time Illidan will be a she or Sargeras will be changed and they will be in love.

[Hollowsoup-hyjal]

I’d say “diversity” as we know it in a fantasy world is a terrible concept actually, I’d love to have more monstrous races like the nerubians, I don’t care about having black or yellow humans, they serve no purpose whatsoever except getting the DEI paychecks. On the contrary, it just shows the lack of integrity of the writers who have no problem changing the world retroactively and out of nowhere just to fit the current narrative (Just like raceswapping the humans in Stormwind).

In the face of woke trash, people who are against it often say “diversity is good if made well”, and I never understood the reasoning behind that. It serves no purpose.

[Dayul-grim-batol]

I was referring to cultural diversity. Not just skin deep, but I agree I would like to see more cultures in the game world. But sadly based on how they’ve cutsiefied the Kobolds, and voiced them like stitch, we would get some smooth Disney version of an orge that just wants to pick flowers and be everyone bestest frwend

[Hollowsoup-hyjal]

In that sense yeah I agree. And yeah I was also annoyed by how the writers just keep going down the line of humanizing every lower race one by one. The gnolls in DF, and now the kobolds. “Oh look they can be friendly” “Oh look they are actually quite clever in some ways” can’t we just kill them and be done with it?