Where Are the Strong Male Figures in the Latest Expansion?

I don’t agree with her because I think soft-spoken or physically weak men can be very cool and important - examples might include viziers, wizards, and even military commanders (there are references to them in Sun Tzu’s Art of War for example), and also researchers and academics will often tend to be physically weak but very valuable to society.

However, you didn’t understand her at all. She clearly wasn’t comparing weak men to murderers as a way of saying that they’re the same.

Comparison is not the same as equality. One might in fact argue they are almost opposites.

Thank you.

They can be, don’t get me wrong. It’s just not cool when ALL the characters are like that. Like people say diversity is good, where is the diversity when all the leaders are female and all the males are whimps? Basically it’s just what we had in the first 15 years of WoW, but backwards.

I was just thinking about BG3 and how diverse their characters are and not once you see somebody screaming “DEI” because they did a very good job integrating those characters with the story and giving them a personality, even when it’s outside normal “stereotypes” - fighter woman, barbarian woman (my favorite), mage male, etc. i mean, hell, they even have a black guy who’s half blind (coincidence, I’m sure /s) and he’s awesome. But you have options

Yes and they all cry and be sympathetic. Characters badass like Varian, Trall, Ilidane, Garosh … are really missing from the game

https://youtu.be/xEylX2LJ8c4?si=OejO6y6agNe758TM&t=153

Please just look 2:33

vs

https://youtu.be/dNRMxtShRL4?si=B_trfAoU58neUddt&t=47

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Masculinity has been dying from gaming for a while now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgTHvx2J-aY&ab_channel=AsmongoldTV

Blizzard is overcompensating on the female leads and we all know why

I can’t bring myself to click that guy, is he complaining about lack of masculinity?

Does the gaming community consider this guy masculine /macho /erm what else is there Alpha dawg? He just doesn’t seem that way to me - but I have never watched him so no idea what he’s like tbh.

Do not very masculine guys feel they need an overly masculine guy to look up to and aspire towards being like? Is that why more nerds gush over the super man actor than single ladies/bored wives?

Although Im a tiny Gnome I have never really looked up/needed/ hero worship/celebrity gushing etc im sooooo weird :frowning: so some of this doesn’t make a lot of sense to me /shrug

(Taurens are cool though)

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You are entitled to your opinion.
Thinking that there is no death of masculinity in gaming.

Comes across as trolling.
Some good examples were made though. Gears of 1 - 3. Masculine games with strong themes - Brotherhood - Duty - Sacrifice - face paced action.
Gears of 4 and 5. Chick flick. Feelings in hallways as the girl is there with her gay black friend moaning about her boyfriend being a jerk. Swapped it with themes of motherhood and being a girl and stuff.

Wolfenstein Young Blood down a complete 180% with Girl boss daughters of B.J. Blazkowicz more feelings in hallways between killing yatzees and stuff.

Worlf of Warcraft Trailers went from. :point_down: :point_down: :point_down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLzhlsEFcVQ&t=142s
Grommash Hellscream leaping through the flames of an Iron Star and burying his axe Gorehowl in the face of Mannaroth. Not backing down an inch as Mannaroth towers over him.

to this :point_down: :point_down: :point_down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYdFLUBjwCU&t=78s
Faerin Lothar looking over the shoulder and the guessing game on if that is a BIOLOGICAL Male or Female.

Masculinity is dying in WoW and gaming. Devs are not designing games for a H3t3ro Masculine Male audience in mind.
Doom Eternal is one of the few games meant for a H3t3ro Masculine Male Audience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRRsnTSj2-8
Despite being a man of few words he does resonate with a male audience.

Anduin Wrynn had his coming of age in Legion - Led the Alliance through Battle for Azeroth - Was dominated in Shadowlands - Went Absent Without Leave on Dragonflight - Cries on mother Faerin’s shoulders throughout The War Within.

As for the Horde. Baine has mother Hayla Highmountain she is cleaning his tears off the fur on her shoulders.

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It’s not just about the lack of “strong” male characters, but also about the role that male characters play. As I’m taking things pretty slow this time around, and doing all of the side quests along the way, I’ve only made it halfway through Hallowfall. And yet there is one pattern I’ve seen again and again.

We meet two or more npc’s. One male, one female. They disagree about something. Eventually the female npc is proven to be right and the male npc either becomes evil or admits to being wrong. Either that or the male was the bad guy all along and has to be either defeated or put in their place by a female npc. Thus far, I’ve counted at least 30-40 quests where this has been the case. And I have yet found one single quest where it’s been the opposite.

Truly, I don’t really care about this whole anti-woke crusade. It’s not like I sit around with a notepad waiting to write down a memo every single time this happens. And I also have no problem whatsoever with Fearin being black or with Anduin being depressed and so on (actually find his story pretty touching). And I do rather like the storyline of this expansion. Yes, I do kinda miss characters like Garrosh, Varian, if nothing else then for perspective, to make characters like Anduin stand out, but all things considered, I still enjoy the expansion and more so than Dragonflight.

Even so, when it is this prevalent it is hard not to see it as a deliberate decision on the part of the developers. And it’s not about whether or not I agree with the message or where I stand politically, it’s just that it takes me out of the immersion. It’s like the ultimate Wilhelm scream. When it’s this obvious, instead of seeing two npc’s interacting with one another, and, you know, being immersed in the story, I see the message behind this interaction, and yeah, that takes me out of the experience.

Also I end up with the feeling that the reason the male npc is not winning the argument and the reason why we don’t see a character like Varian is not because it doesn’t make sense in the story (because Varians were the standard of WoW for like 15 years), but because someone somewhere has deemed it unacceptable. And that makes me feel as if the game has been, I don’t know, bridled and so, to some extent, has my experience.

I don’t know if that makes any sense.

And I do know there’s a racist and sexist backlash to all of this. I know there are people who rail against Woke because they are hardcore right-wingers who disagree with the message. But to me, it’s not really a political issue (I’m actually far left IRL), as much as it is an issue concerning the autonomy of art and imagination.

And it is a fact that the game no longer has characters like Varian, Garrosh, Arthas, Illidan, Tirion, etc. and that almost all male characters in the last few expansions have mostly been quiet, introspective, unassertive, often ineffective and mostly relegated to the sidelines while the female characters have been out there solving most of the problems.

It is also a fact that the modern day WoW, in style and tone, and with its emphasis on things like feelings, friendship and validation, is indeed going for a much softer and wholesome approach than the games of old with their rugged, epic, often larger-than-life characters and events. Just compare the cinematic from WoD to the final cutscene from Dragonflight and it becomes obvious in so many ways, it’s hard to believe it’s even the same game.

And finally while some of these aspects have changed gradually throughout the lifespan of WoW (and even prior to WoW during the RTS games) something happened to the game between 2018-2022 which drastically altered its vibe and narrative tone, specifically in matters of identity and how the various genders and characters were presented, as was common to much media during that time. Indeed in these specific matters (not gameplay obviously), the WoW of late 2017 was far closer to the WoW of 2004 than 2017 is to what we had during Dragonflight and also, from what I’ve seen, thus far, of the War Within.

Now whether or not this is a good thing is a matter of personal preference and if someone prefers the modern day storytelling of WoW to the that of the older versions of WoW, that’s their prerogative. These people are not wrong, nor are they woke, liberal snowflakes, they simply have a preference. Similar, if someone prefers the WoW of say eight to ten years ago, where you still had characters like Anduin but also characters like Varian and Illidan, that doesn’t mean that they’re sexist jerks, insecure in their masculinity, etc. etc. Again, it’s just a matter of preference.

If we could all realize this, get out of our echo chambers and try to actually listen to one another, who knows, maybe one day we’ll have a game that can appeal to both sides. And the war within the community will be over. But this necessitates a need to listen, to go beyond scapegoating, name-calling and only arguing against either strawmen or the most extreme representatives of “the other side”. As Obama once said, “Throwing stones is easy” and while it might make us “feel pretty good about ourselves”, in the end it’s only going to cause more division and suffering and, as he put, we’re “probably not going to get very far”. And indeed we’ve seen this cycle so many times. One side criticize the other, then the other digs their heels in, people come out to defend them, retaliates, and so it continues, seemingly without end. To quote Taran Zhu:

“I see now why your Alliance and Horde cannot stop fighting. Every reprisal is itself an act of aggression, and every act of aggression triggers immediate reprisal. YOU must break the cycle.”

If the Horde and the Alliance can come together despite their differences and make the world stronger because of it, perhaps in time, so can we. And we can have a world that can accommodate both sides (and everyone in between). That, too, is diversity.

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I suggest you search for “Larry Fink Blackrock force behaviors” on Youtube.

There is no “we” in diversity. There are only the executives at the top who keep pushing for the “diversity” agenda and the people below who either swallow it or fight against it. Replacing women with fruits and blackwashing elves and humans is not being diverse, it’s forsaking the worldbuilding for the sake of ESG points.

Your view has merit, but until the whole ESG/DEI/Bridge plan gets brought down, accepting their definition of “diversity” (because it is not what it claims to be) is swallowing propaganda.

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Yea. It’s true. I was thinking about it for last 2 weeks and it appears Blizzard went full “strong female characters only”.

Thrall - barely there
Boy king - shell of a hero, who had to be lifted by a strong female character back to light
Magni - stipped of his powers
Khadgar - ended up in wheelchair (also beaten by a female antagonist and saved by a female hero)

This is getting ridiculous.

Give us back some cool strong male dude.

And I know there gonna be some woman right activists who will blame people like me for sexism or whatever.

Sylvanas was a cool female character. Jaina was a cool female character. While those two (well Jaina is there but …as a usless texture right now) were replaced by new strong female characters, our strong male characters are being promoted to “barely a relevant slimes”.

The woke agenda is so obvious here.

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LITERALLY comparing a 30+ second sequence with a 2 second shot.

You are impossible to have a normal conversation with, because you keep on pulling complete and utter nonsense like that. Again. And again. And again.

The anti-woke agenda is so obvious with your post.
So… Why is Blizzard wrong? Why are you not wrong?
Explain that to me please.

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It’s okay, to not like things, it’s okay, but don’t be a prick about it. Don’t be a prick about the things you don’t like. :kissing_heart:

Are you Warlóór?
It is a simple comparison of WoW then adn WoW now.
Funny that you have not proven me wrong.
Say what you want. But you have not said I am wrong.

It is actually a return to normal. The rise of Wokeness was around 2010s. Latching on to other peoples successes. But the great studios of the past have been replaced with activists. Now they try to say that DEI and ESG does sell. Despite examples like Saints Row Reboot 2022 - Concord - Dustborn - Starfall - Flintlocke and more.

Will leave this here. :point_down: :point_down: :point_down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Detx9XjGh5Y
Criticism constructive or not is a good thing. Even if people hate something they are somewhat invested. Apathy is when you end up like Concord.

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Strong male characters are a thing of the past.
Expect Madame Webb style girl bosses going forward.
Khadgar was supposed to be guardian - Got the Alliance and Horde forces to pay a crucial role in defeating the Legion - The Iron Horde.
Now he is the Mansel in distress (role reversal of the male damsel waiting for generic strong independent woman to come save him).

You have to understand their tactics. They won’t repeat the same tactics if it was not effective. Attack the person - derail conversation or debate - force the accused to defend against the slur that almost always ends in an Ist Ism Phobic.

Don’t like characters converted into LGBT? Congrats you’re anti LGBT.
Don’t like gender swaps or everybody is a girl boss? Congrats you’re anti woman (adult biological female.
Don’t like characters race swapped? Congrats you’re anti [insert non white ethnicity].

The only acceptable males are either neutered - Mansels in distress - f3mboy$
Everybody knows the path that Activision Blizzard is taking the World of Warcraft franchise down. The only thing left is for us the paying customer / player / content consumer to decide if this is what you will fund and propagate.

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Still obsessing over pronouns?
Doesn’t it get tiring after a while?

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It’s a lousy comparison. That was my point. :sweat_smile:

I don’t need to.
Because you just have an opinion. Which is fine.

I just don’t like it when you try to enforce that opinion with nonsense.
And I will call you out on it.

Sometimes things change. And the people unwilling to go along with that change will be left behind, become pariahs or ridiculed for their outdated ways.

Take slavery in the USA for instance. When it was beginning to get abolished, there were plenty of people who didn’t like that. Wanted things to ‘go back to normal’.
That’s basically what you’re doing.

Oh and also; since you asked me if I was Warlóór. I will ask you now: Are you Westera?

Sure, sure.
To go back to my earlier example: Just like employers who started to actually pay their workers more appropriately and treated them like actual human beings and not property, were just ‘activists’, right?

You keep using that example.

Sometimes a bad game is just a bad game. Not everything is related to what you dislike, no matter how much you want it to be.

It is actually an accurate example. You are too proud to admit that you do not have a response.
WoW is undeniably less masculine now than it was in the past. What you are doing is the equivalent of burying your head in the sand.

I might not like Moltensage but he/she is correct about X. :point_left: :point_left: :point_left: This is too much for you to admit.

There is a saying. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Turning boy brands meant for everybody into girl brands made for nobody does not work. It’s simply hijacking an intellectual property to push a certain agenda.

Wow as for as reaching goes you’re Olympic Gold level medalist quality including mental gymnastics. So Make Games Masculine Again is similar to bringing back the trans-Atlantic slave trade?
Unless you edit or delete your post then people will see that you are crazy.

Answering a question with a question is simply running away. Either engage in the conversation or don’t.

No those that are ideologically motivated are activists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0E794D05d0
Latoya Raveneau openly declares that she adds “queerness” anywhere and everywhere that she could.
Other “consulting firms” like Sweet Baby Inc add DEI and ESG for the sake of DEI and ESG.

You might not be paying attention. But Activision Blizzard just laid off 2550 employees. DEI and ESG actually has to sell. Alienate or drive away the existing audience - paying customers - content consumers then the games dies, the studio dies, the franchise dies.
Activism is extremely bad for business.

Concord is a cautionary tale. An undeniable failure. Continue down the DEI and ESG path then risk ending up like Concord.
Look at Space Marine 2. Bringing back masculinity to the games industry.

Ubisoft is almost completely infested by activists as they are doing their recruitment drive for females only or those that identify as females as they push DEI and ESG.
Stop with the lies. Concord is full of DEI and ESG. They banned playable White characters. They tried and failed as the market decides what is successful or not.

Making a good game is not the goal. Activism is.

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I hate X because this movie shows Y being cool for half an hour, but this one minute in this other movie shows me something I personally don’t like so it’s a conspiracy, obviously. ← That is what you’re doing. And it’s stupid.

I never said it wasn’t.
I’m saying that that isn’t an issue and it’s not some big conspiracy. THAT is what I’m saying.

Just because you don’t think it was broken, doesn’t mean it objectively wasn’t.
There were dozens of big manly man characters in vanilla and 3 (!) strong female characters of note. Literally. That wasn’t broken? Really?

The developers are making the game they want to make.
Deal with it. And I said this before: Just quit.
This incessant whining is helping absolutely nobody. They’re not going to change what they want to do just because you don’t like it.

If they want to focus on a big burly man again in the future, they will. But not because you are throwing a hissy fit on a forum.

It’s an example of the same kind of conservative thinking that keeps people oppressed and worse of. You’re the crazy one for suggesting we should act like that.

You did it yourself first. Ironic, isn’t it.

So you are an activist?
Then stop it. Go away. I don’t want no activism on my forums.
You’re not welcome. Bye!

Then stop it.

It being a bad game has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.
Stop spewing nonsense. Stop pushing your agenda you activist.

Conspiracy nut. To quote you:

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Every single human being old enough to understand language is ideologically motivated. Including you.

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Yet another strawman. Just like your “bring back slavery post”
:point_down: :point_down: :point_down:

It is actually. Much of the WoW playerbase are being very vocal from the forums to social media videos about the direction that the War Within has taken.
If it was just Moltensage then you could bury your head in the sand. But many players across Alliance and Horde have noticed and speaking up about it.

F3mboy$ - Emasculated males might not be a problem for you but for many it is. This is Warcraft not Animal Crossing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLKS0Jq9U_E
Whilst the World of Warcraft is not Grimdark like Total War Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k.

World of Warcraft is dark in itself. The Terror of Darkshore trailer. More specifically the dying screams of that Orc even as he was being muffled / gagged by the vine. Reminds the player that the Night Elves as a race are actually very savage. The War of the Saytr - the origins of the pack form and more.

For the rewriting of the Forsaken they were always savages little different to Scourge. A trip to Undercity and you see the living that are the plaything for the Forsaken is plenty evidence of this. Whatever they were in life died now the cursed being is all that remains.

Sounds like Gender Communism. More specifically Equity = Equal outcome. There has to be 50% male and female “representation” at all times. Correct?
It is possible to be strong AND feminine. Male characters with female body parts is what is being pushed as the “strong woman” and girl boss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Detx9XjGh5Y&t=193s
:point_up_2: :point_up_2: :point_up_2:
Those that think like you are part of the problem. Why minimize the playerbase? Customer feedback is important.
Woke Girl Bosses can exist. But you should not remove the Strong Masculine characters. Why remove the options from the playerbase?

You have an entire stable of strawman at this point. You just increase the numbers.

Yet another Strawman. You can’t seem to be able to hold a conversation at this point. I literally included a video of an activist that openly declares that she will force queerness everywhere she can.
But no surprise you bury your head in the sand again.

You seems to be having a full melt down at this point.

It is simple entertainment. You know what sells and what does not sell.
Why do people log in to their accounts? To immerse themselves in the WORLD of Warcraft, or to be constantly reminded of current day politics and Wokeism at every opportunity?

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