Yes she did. How dare she is to make sure that the Horde wouldn’t break the rules. I mean they wouldn’t do it for sure… wait what do they do in Darnassus. Was Jaina wrong by thinking that the Horde would break the rules. Do you have example were you could say that the alliance broke the neutrality of Dalaran? I’m waiting.
Why would the Alliance break the neutrality? They’re not part of the Kirin Tor. What are you even on about?
No, not really. The Kirin Tor aided in the protection of Theramore prior to this, and considered themselves neutral aftet this as well, meaning they do allow their members to aid either faction without violating their neutrality.
Furthermore, what did Jaina do? Help a city prevent a dangerous weapon fall into the wrong hands. She is not really aiding the Alliance as much as working together with them for a common purpose. Most importantly, she is not raising a hand against the Horde, just helping safeguard a place that the Horde had no business being anyway. Who are you to say she is not allowed to place magical wards in Darnassus?
On top of all that, the Kirin Tor never reprimanded Jaina, and accepted her descision to exile the Sunreavers, showing that they only considered one of those inicdents to be in violation of their principles.
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Yeah, they can consider themselves whatever they like, but directly assisting one side in a war against the other isn’t “neutral”.
So, Jaina can’t object to the Sunreavers then?
Yes she was. Against the Horde.
She was explicitly “capturing their rogues”. Her words.
She can do whatever she wants. But she violates the Kirin Tor’s netraulity in doing so.
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There are a few of the Kirin Tor for sure, but you have no scenario were they breaked any rules. If Jaina would just ignore that, you could say that she breaked the neutrality. I’m sorry but it’s just a stupid argument imo. It just seems like a silly try to argue that she broke the neutrality…
That is your opinion. Neutrality in war is not some cut and dry issue that has definitions everyone agrees upon. Some consider trading with one warring party neutrality. In the case of Theramore, one can make the argument that the Kirin Tor is neutral because they are no actually interested in fighting or defeating the Horde, but merely there to protect civilians.
Besides, it is irrelevant. Your claim was that Jaina violated the Kirin Tor’s neutrality first. They themselves decide constitutes as violating their neutrality. If their laws do not consider her actions to be a violation, she has not violated their neutrality.
Yes she can. She is the leader of the Kirin Tor. She had made the executive descision to keep a weapo out of the war, the Sunreavers ursurped that descision. They handed a weapon over to the Horde, knowing they would use it, while Jaina helped the people who had already taken ownership of it, who had stated they would not use it, ensure it would never be used.
How? The Alliance already had the bell. As you claim below, she is free to place wards in Darnassus.
Capturing rogues that had no business being in Darnassus anyway. They are criminals while in that city. Helping another state capture criminals, even enemy state-sponsored ones, is not aiding in the war. That is aiding people on civil business.
That is what this comes down to. Protecting Darnassus from thieves is civil business, not an act of war. While in Darnassus, the Horde are not soldiers on the battlefield, they are criminals. Darnassus themselves agreed to let Jaina help protect their city from criminals, and that is what she did, and that is what she did. She did not fight any Horde soldiers, just criminals.
If she can do whatever she wants, then it follows that what she did is not a violation of the Kirin Tor’s neutrality. You have to prove that the Kirin Tor considered what she did to be a violation before you can claim that.
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Jaina was never truly neutral. Neither were the Kirin Tor. Her aiding the alliance to get the Bell, and safeguarding it to Darnassus showed their true colors once again. Just like my MVP Rommath had been saying it the entire time. Once alliance always alliance.
Also that pathetic worm Aethas should also be executed for his thee times treason after crawling to those human overlords like a beaten dog. Maybe then the Sunreavers get someone competent as leader. Someone much better.
The Sunreavers could not even hide their heist from Jaina. They are themselves incompetent, even for Blood Elves.
She’s got “plot armour”, right? ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
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Theramore. Death would have been a mercy killing there rather than making her live.
The rules? Both factions were at war. Infiltrating and stealing from your declared enemies isn’t breaking any rule.
And if I bump between two battling factions and start lending aid towards either of them, that’s not being neutral.
If the Earthen Ring started creating waves with the lone purpose of preventing the Alliance fleet from docking or invading Orgrimmar…would you say they are being neutral?
Garrosh left the traces on purpose to frame the Blood elves.
It’s not about them being incompetent, and more about Jaina falling into the trap and doing exactly what Garrosh wanted by unconsciously sabotaging the diplomatic effort Varian was carrying out. The one that would’ve made Blood elves switch sides.
If we are to point fingers and label someone as ‘incompetent’…then that’s Jaina.
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Actually, it’s all of them involved.
Jaina, Aethas, LTT, Tyrande by extension.
They all were played by Garrosh’s game because the Elves were planning on joining the Alliance, so Garrosh had to work fast and he did so and everyone who was involved with the Divine Bell paid the price.
The Night Elves got off the lightest, the Blood Elves, the heaviest, but in a way where they would remain within the Horde.
Nobody is more “incompetent” than the other here, because the characters in question could only work with the information that they knew at the time. This is what they know, not what WE know. Jaina didn’t know everything we knew. LTT didn’t know everything we knew.
And if we truly must point fingers, then, by lore and popular opinion - the most stupid leader that we’ve ever stumbled upon, well - that’s Aethas Sunreaver.
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Prove this.
There was a cutscene just before the Purge, that had Aethas confronting Malkorok upon stumbling with them meddling with the Sunreaver portal network. And that had Malkorok directly threatening him if he as much as spoke about it to anybody.
To be threatened by a tyrants second, and the guy responsible for a wide list of murders, torture, beatings, etc, is no small thing.
Aethas is an incompetent for not learning from what wiser elves like Rommath tried to lecture him about. For insisting on following some utopian dream that had blood elves somehow overcoming the racial prejudices humans had with them. Even after said prejudices come bite them repeatedly in the rear.
For trading a relic of a dynasty for his own admittance into said organisation.
And to more often than not, warm up to human affairs more than to the ones of his own people (often going against what the rulers of his country want of him).
But regarding the Purge, he was as hand tied as anybody could be.
Doubt people feel like calling out on Alexstraza for surrendering her children to the Dark Horde when they threatened her eggs.
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Lorthemars character page in this very web:
When the continent of Pandaria was discovered by Horde forces, Lor’themar and the blood elves were invited to help conquer the new land, but the sinister methods of Warchief Garrosh Hellscream led Lor’themar to reconsider his position. The regent lord initiated conversations with King Varian Wrynn, hoping to rejoin the Alliance, but Garrosh sabotaged his diplomatic efforts by organizing a heist in Darnassus and focusing blame on the blood elves. Now resigned to the eventuality of intra-factional war, Lor’themar awaits the right moment to rise up against Garrosh and restore the glory of his people.
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But you see, here’s the problem.
He was losing control of his faction of Elves within Dalaran. A few Magi grew disgruntled, Garrosh seized the opportunity and he killed two birds with one stone, whereby he stuck a needle in the Elves for attempting betrayal, but also drew them back to the Horde, all in one.
Part of the reason on why the Purge escalated the way it did lies at his feet as well.
This all showed us that he was not and is not fit to be a leader.
He brought that upon himself, in the long run.
You must have misread what I wrote. You claimed:
and I aksed for evidence of this. You provided me with a citation stating Garrosh organized the attack, not that he left traces behind to frame the Blood Elves. Looking at the actual heist, the Sunreaver responsible did his best to remove all traces of the heist, the Bell was brought to Silvermoon, and never is it mentioned that Garrosh, who was not partaking in the hesit, left any traces behind on purpose.
So you have failed to prove your assertion. Please provide proof or retract it.
In addition, I cannot find the character page you referred to. It is not listed in the character page, so I somewhat doubt what you wrote is even legit.
Here:
This bit clearly points at Garrosh actively and consciously, leaving behind enough evidence to frame the Blood elves for the heist.
So, going back to your initial claim about ‘blood elves being incompetent enough to get caught’…that bit was intentional.
A trap Garrosh explicitly left for Jaina to fall in.
That points at him leaving traces that led her specifically towards the Sunreavers.
Here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130723030231/http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/characters/lorthemar-theron
Many leader pages were lost with the web update. That’s why they created the archive.
No. No it does not. If it said “Garrosh left behind traces to frame the Blood Elves”, it would say that. But it does not. It says he “focused blame”, which is not synonymous with “leaving behind traces to frame someone”. Focus blame can mean many different things in different context. It could mean he later blamed the Blood Elves, for example. You are just interpreting what is written in a way that is convinient to you. You are jumping the gun, assming this piece of indicative evidence proves a larger network of data you have not illustrated. You do not get oof that easily.
You need to illustrate that he left behind traces, purposefully to frame the blood elves. You need to show that these false traces you claim exist, actually exist.
You have yet to prove this. You have never shown tha Garrosh left any traces anywhere.
See. You cannot conclusively even claim he left traces behind, only that one piece of data points to another piece of data that has never been found. Never, in the entire questline involving the heist, does Garrosh reveal a plan to frame the Blood Elves, nor does he ever actively leave behind traces for the Alliance to find, and the entire mission was carried out by blood elves.
So I ask you again, where is the evidence? Show me a web-page concretely describing one of these traces garrosh left behind, and not just your headcanon based on a single line from some archived summary.