Not talking about the pvp in raid Summoning areas Between Factions . Good Memories ( i mean my guild ( and many alliance guilds spend 5 hours fighting Horde Guilds.
Instead of doing the programmed Raid Schedule we end up spending the entire time doing pvp and they loved it .
This literaly never happend. Thing is they were supostu improve that feature not completly remove it.
Imagine that instead of removing arrows. You can now have extra slot for your quiver on top of your baseline bag slots where you could store arrows and it would show on your character. They could also create hunter specific profession where you could craft your own arrows and bullets.
But no. They picked easy way out of it and just remove it completly for sake of covinience for people what doesnt like playing rpg games.
That guy that run out ammo is the Same people that Find Lfr Hard right now
I raided with plenty of Hunters from 40-25 ( My Naxx guild Had 6 Hunters… I (We) never had the issue of running out of ammo. ( The only people that would run out of ammo were the people that didn’t bother to use gem on the gear , didn’t bring flask for Raid and didn’t even bother reading the abilities of the boss but were the 1st one to die and to ask i need all the loot…!
it is about as immersive as you thinking you just learned you stuff by fighting stuff and trying out new things and inventing new spells.
basically what we have now, you get more skilled in combat and add a new talent point and get a new spell sometimes. how is that less immersive than going to an npc that teaches you 10 new spells in 3 seconds? lpl
it was probably just meant as a gold sink.
I suppose one could make the argument that it ultimately depends on the class fantasy. The idea of a warrior trying to switch up how he swings his sword, or a rogue getting creative, or a warlock communing even more deeply with the powers that seem to chase him - that I can buy. But a mage or druid who are normally said to study for their entire lives if they were to figure it out on their own? Absolutely not.
But I’m sure that if they were to make such differences - that some classes must go back and others must not, and that some classes have a lot of heavy lore and class quests to learn certain spells, then the playerbase would also lose their mind due to convenience concerns.
Maybe some people played this old version for years and got tired of Meanwhile new people who find something new enjoy it.
You will grow tired of it belive me.
I do recall the time the bullets/arrows did not stack that high and had a full bag of ammo, yet after some wipes in a raid, I was out of ammo. For that reason my main back then had engineering and always mats available so I could provide our raid group with ammo if needed.
So I was part happy part sad that ammo was gone. Happy because I had a whole bag more I could use instead of full of ammo, sad because I lost income by selling ammo.
I had hoped that at least the ammo slot next to the ranged weapon would still be there and that there were different ammo types, flame arrow/bullet, ice, bleeding etc.
(tactics perhaps? boss needs fire to get your max output, or frost, or otherwise normal ammo depending on type)
So an engineer could still make “ammo” of a type and “level” like before but that you only had to slot once and or upgrade once a while while leveling.
Still a little complexity but not the annoyance.
For me classic is just a nostalgia trip the only reason i touched it because of my guildies friends .
As most player stated some of the stuff which create immersion are also tidious .
I prefer focusing on dynamic content like m+
Simple. Quality of life.
You might like all that stuff while leveling. But WoW is, and has always been, an endgame experience.
You level a new toon for 5 months. And spend 1.5 years playing endgame. That used to be the case in classic. But the main difference with Retail and Classic is the leveling.
People got so tired of having to re-do the same 5 months over and over again for each alt that they streamlined the process. In retail today you can level an alt in 5h. So retail is even more extreme than classic in that aspect. You literally spend 2 years of expansion doing end-game activities.
When you compare Retail to Classic, you have to compare that : “how much end-game content do I play”.
So all those “immersive features” you mention were removed because they were annoying to deal with during those 1.5 years of endgame in classic.
Really annoying. Extremely annoying.
For example : Hunters having to fill up every single slot of bag space with arrows for raid night. And even then, sometimes they had to TP back to Ogri to get more. To the detriment of the whole raid that had to wait for them.
Example 2 : Warlocks having to walk out of the raid mid session to get more shards.
Because people love to cry-complain over everything .
Today Looking on Some old Wotlk posts .
People cried because they couldn’t afford to buy Epic Gems
People cried because some professions was giving extra bonus that the current proffesion they Had.
People cried for the cost of pot/flask .
People by the start they play one game they start to complain .
Today reading on Steam .
Guy has nearly 500 hours …and want Refund … I mean is totally Logic…
If that guy was playing WoW …today would he ask Refund for anything he bough…expansion-sub and anything …
You remind MoP when we Recruited 2 brothers-Raiders … They wouldn’t Use Pre-pot even flask …or Food And on Teamspeak when we ask them why you don’t USe …they don’t have the money…and it doesn’t matter.
This example with Hunter is beyond …??? bad…
I have raided Since Classic … Naxx we had 6 core Hunters. How is possible playing years with them, Classic , Tbc and Wotlk where guild break up and we never had that issue ??
Nax was notorious because only 0,01% of the player base stepped foot in there. So much so that they devided to re-vamp it for wotlk.
So you were part of the elite of the eliye in classic. And just by virtue of wiping fewer times, and bosses living for less time… Your hunters did not have the issue 99% of people did.
Only 2 things I miss from trying out classic versions:
Disagree. Classic stats were a mess. Confusing.
And most of them useless. But you needed a PhD in gaming to understand what they did.
Not intuitive at all.
You’re arguing with a guy who said this: “If anything, WoW is becoming more of an RPG than anything else. Stop complaining.”
I don’t think you’ll find anything useful in this discussion.
What you mean to say is that stats in vanilla / classic were “hard” to minmax around based on what dropped for you. Their description clearly stated how they affect your characters’ performance.
The stats we have now are on the same complexity as the stats of the 1st generation of Pokemon games.
Right. So strength increased damage. So did AP. By how much?
Nobody knew.
What about Armour Penetration? How much did that increase DPS?
What about resistances? By how much DR would 1 point help? Where was that stated?
What about “hit chance”? Where was it stated that there was a cap? Why was there a “spell hit chance” too that was unafected by the “hit chance” statistic (which was only melee)? Where was that stated?
What about glancing blows? (for melee) What about spell penetration for casters? What about intrinsic spell school resistance of mobs which was not stated anywhere either?
What about Defense statistics? Or the existence of Crushing Blows? And the fact that you needed some % of block, dodge, parry, miss to “push it off the attack table”?
Where is this attack table shown? Both for mobs attacking you, and for you attacking mobs. And why is it completely different for spells?
And by the way, this is the reason why Prot Warrior was so OP back then. As the only tank that can stack enough of those stats (unlike GDruid it has block).
You mean those statistics? Are you telling me that they are “clearly stated” ? What are you smoking?
In Classic there existed the possibility that a 50 ilvl upgrade was worse for you because it did not have adequate stats. It was ridiculous.
So? Complexity does not mean fun. Unnecessarily complex things are just as boring.
Right now we are in a good spot. Because all 4 secondary stats give you some benefit (with few exceptions). But main stat gives the most value.
So ANY upgrade is a good upgrade. That is amazing for gameplay.
And then, you have to sim yourself 4 secondary stats to see what benefits the most. And its no easy task because you have a lot of synergy between those secondary stats and the talent trees. Something you did not have in Classic WoW.
In addition, all the complexity of confusing secondary stats of classic have been condensed to item cantrips (weapons with “effects” and trinkets).
So you have your complexity there. But condensed in a paragraph and 2 items.
Resume of this discussion : Typical nostalgia blunt that “everything was better in classic wow” situation. If you like that type of confusing statistics with a bunch of obscure back-door interaction then play classic. What can I say.
This is exactly what I mean. You view it under the prism of minmaxing and nothing else. You are not the type of player who might hit an enemy and say “hm, I miss quite often, I will try to increase my hit chance rating” or “I run out of mana a lot in long fights, I will sacrifice a bit of maximum mana to increase my in-combat mana regeneration” or “My damage intake is too spiky, I will try to exchange some of my avoidance for damage mitigation”. You are the type of player who says “I want the absolute maximum and this maximum should be the exact same for every boss fight without a single exception, and nothing else should be viable or be allowed to be rewarded on the same scale as the build I copied from a simulator”
You are not a player who enjoys RPGs, ie. a player who may want to try a character focused on small-damage flurries of attacks , or a character focused on long-cast hard-hitting abilities; you are the type of player who asks “WHAT IS THE BEST???” and then you copy that.
the mythic+ go-go-go competitive mindset pervades the vast majority of the game now. there is no going back and there is no arguing with that segment of the population
I actually do my reserch. I dont blanket copy talents and builds. If you want proof, inspect my RShaman. Then go to IcyVeins and compare my talents and BiS gear.
The first thing I do when I check info out in WoWHead and IcyVeins is to understand WHY they suggest what they suggest. Because 99.999% of the time those guides are written by the top 0.1% FOR the top 0.1%. So its not neceseraly true if you dont play at those levels.
My most recent example is : With my Arms warrior, WoW head sais that the BiS trinket across the board by a massive margin is Cataclysmic Signet Brand. Turns out its false. Why?
You need long fights to get value from it. And ST patchwork simulations are 5 to 10 min long. So only mythic raiders actually benefit. Heroic raiders (my case) with sub 2 minute boss fights barely get any value. So Augury of the Primal Flame gains a LOT more value.
With that said, all this parragraph is BS. You are assuming things that are incorrect :
I will repeat. In classic wow you did not know if “you missed too much”. What is “normal amount of miss” and what is “better amount of miss”. And in fact, where is this “miss” quantified?
And if you were a caster and saw in details that you “missed a lot”. Then you stack “hit chance” stat gear and turns out that you STILL miss a lot. Why? Description sais it increases chance to hit right?
In the end, you only knew when you compared yourself to others. So a DPS warrior was in a raid with another warrior. And you did 50% the damage he did.
And why is min-maxing important to a degree? Because bad performance in group content feels bad. It feels bad to do tank damage in a raid. Or to be the only healer that runs out of mana. Or to be the tank that gets 1-shot.
The question is WHY? And what can you do about it.
So in the case of our friend DPS warrior you inspect the “better you” and try to figure out WHY.
In classic… no chance. You had no idea just by inspecting a person. You HAD to sim yourself.
In retail, you can clearly see what are the differences between you, and someone that has better performance. Just by inspecting them.
And then, the WHY is much more intuitive. Its easier to understand.
Even thoug, let me repeat again :
In classic statistics had ZERO synergy with talents (with few exceptions). ONLY with hidden hit tables. I repeat : HIDDEN.
In retail, there are no more hit tables. But statistics have HUGE synergies with talents. Which are clearly visible.
Its not rocket science to understand that Resurgence (RShaman mana regen) benefits from more crit. Its written on the description.
You don’t like M+? Dont play it.
I could say the same from Raiding and Open World (now Delves). The “take it chill” mentality is boring to me.
Retail gives you choice. Classic does not.