Look at yourself. Now back at me.
Yes, I AM a spacegoat with tentacles coming from my ears.
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What are you talking about? I think my trolls are super pretty.
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Zandalari are. Rest? Not so much. The reforged models pay it more justice.
I think my troll is super handsome. Handsomer than barbie elf.
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Let the guy rest in peace already, seriously.
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See norse mythology. Humans, dwarfs and elves becoming best friends ever is the biggest bullcrap.
Allright, I stand corrected then, but aside that the point still stands, Arthas did what the Horde didn’t, and Garithos and others tried to finish the job for the remains.
Possibly, but that’s not much of an argument in my opinion, since the Forsaken were as much victimized by the Scourge as Quel’thalas was, Sylvanas Windrunner was also raised as a Banshee and fought for the Scourge…the big deal here, they did it against there will, and as soon as they had reclaimed it, they started fighting back, and later on those same Forsaken(Or Lordaeronians) sent help and helped the Blood Elves fight off the Scourge and reclaim their lands.
It is, to a point, she did send the Sentinels to Quel’Thalas, and they were most certainly Not friendly. Or are we just going to pin that on that other ‘Alliance hero’, Staghelm…
As far as I’m concerned the High Elves still in game Are the retcon, sure it’s entirely possible/probable some stayed back in the safety of Human lands when kael’thas recalled his people to fight for Quel’thalas, but them being all over the place, I’m not convinced.
Look at the Allerian Stronghold for a plothole for instance, they need to explain to you that they are Not Blood Elves….but really, how do they know what a Blood Elf actually is, if they were away during everything that happened?
Furthermore, if they did have contact with Blood Elves in Outland, then why are they suddenly opposed to their own people, instead of helping them out / rejoining them?..yeah, I remain unconvinced there.
Yes, thank you, that’s exactely one of the reasons you Can’t Judge the classic experience by looking at this recent ‘Classic experience’.
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Am actually reading this and completely failing to figure out the point of the debate. Can someone give me a TL DR?
Elves bad Trolls good.
More like elves dead, amirite, hehe.
Typical human scum. Out of the odd 30 or so Orcs, Trolls, Tauren and Goblins you made a beeline for the Blood Elf in the back.
That’s cause I saw the glasses. A radiant presence comes with consequences.
No, I hate it when it is gameplay > lore and I hate it when people defend this stuff.
You can play and like Blood Elves, I am not taking that away from anyone. But you can also accept that it made (and kinda still does) no sense for them to join the Horde when they did, the reason they did and how they did it.
I play a Void Elf, I quite like Umbric and his unique nature. I can also accept they are *sspull and will argue they are because I don’t change what I think to suit my personal needs.
That all depends on how they are written, now does it? You could easily have a story of them reconciling with the Horde, trying to take back their land and so on. Just because they are/were or whatever are stubborn doesn’t mean they are permanently like that.
I am not advocating the Amani should have joined the Horde, I am saying that they were the better choice for the Horde from a story perspective.
There is a huge difference.
I have already argued this with you, no need to bring it up again.
You mind giving the proof for this part? I don’t recall seeing it in Warcraft 3.
How was it a good deal? They spent more resources defending them then what they provided to the Horde.
And Sylvanas vouching for them isn’t worth a damn thing as nobody trusts her lol.
Right, thanks for saying many more races would make sense joining the Horde than the Blood Elves. Cheers for that.
Speaks volumes to how much they needed to change and bury in order to make Blood Elves seem like the better choice.
I am glad you listed 3 of the most evilist people to ever exist on Azeroth. Jeez I wonder why they distance themselves from them. Furthermore Zul’jin wasn’t remotely that evil. I would hardly call him bad he just fought for his people against an invader.
And the alliance with the night elves broke down due to the orcs aggressive nature and the constant push into Ashenvale/Azhsara so that explains that.
It happened because the writers needed Blood Elves on the Horde and had to somehow make it happen which is why there are so many issues with it. Zul’jin shouldn’t even have to worry about a possible Blood Elf-Horde team up as that seems near impossible to happen logically.
Maybe because Stormwind after the Second War was heavily populated by the people of Lordaeron, not to mention the refugees fleeing from the Third war? That is nowhere near nonsensical bud.
Warmonger, serious? I forgot how much of a warmonger he was trying to take back his lands… He didn’t even want the greater Amani Empire just the core parts lol.
Indeed, so did the Orcs and yet they have heroes?
Alright, and?
Tell that to the Zandalari and how the Trolls looks up to them.
Ye, them seeing him as a hero was just an error in the speech lines, right?
Next up, Broxigar wasn’t a hero to the Orcs because he was 10,000 years in the past and on a completely different continent.
Difference was that Gilneas was never a foe…? They never fought against each other and even when they tried to join back Varian and the Humans refused? I also didn’t see the part where Gilneas wanted to murder the rest of the Humans.
Asking for an alliance doesn’t mean you are accepted nor should even be considered. Nor does that rank you higher on the alliance factor than someone who didn’t ask.
It isn’t some modifier.
- So you have someone who barely anyone trusts on the Horde advocate for them.
- The Blood Elves using the information of the Mag’har as leverage/semi-blackmail which would go down well.
- More work for the Horde and fighting on more fronts with little to no benefit.
- Getting a very weak foothold on EK.
- Thrall showing pity to a race what wanted to murder them all.
Oh wow look, such friends what a perfect choice. I can’t see anything wrong with this at all. Such natural allies much wow.
You are using one of the most aggressive and violent Troll tribes to paint arguably the 2 most “peaceful” tribes as awful trash.
B is theory. If the Darkspear were to settle on the Amani land then ye there probably would be tension, but guess what? Them settling on any land owned by a nation would cause tension. That is an awful excuse.
And A the Zandalari are different to the rest yet they are seen as the best and most powerful. Darkspear had reasons to be inspired about the Amani resistance to nations invading their lands, destroying their holy sites and almost killing their leader. This stuff happens IRL too you know.
That is the only valid one you have came up with so far.
Like I said before, this comes down to the Blood Elves needing an alliance and nothing else and that is your only defence. Thrall and the Horde had barely anything positive to come out of this alliance. The Amani would never stand by and allow this to happen even if it had to right to even exist in the first place.
Actually, give a reason why the Horde would accept the Elves in the position they have, what did they have to gain from it and what did they lose from it? And then compare that to gain and lose from the Amani joining them.
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So like, I didn’t need even more evidence, but I feel like this thread perfectly proves why Daelin did nothing wrong.
WC2 Horde =/= WC3 and WoW Horde…learn the distinction and perhaps it makes more sense…
Thrall himself wasn’t part of it, nor were any of his age or younger.
Tauren never burned Quel’Thalas.
Darkspear never burned Quel’thalas, they’re infact Jungle trolls, historicly from the whole other side of the Eastern Kingdoms, athough I can see some individuals agreeing with the Amani cause, it does make sense, since they’re the same race.
Forsaken…well, I covered that bit, wether that’s accepted or not, is up to the reader, Sylvanas Windrunner was their tragic hero, the fallen Ranger general of Quel’thalas, sent her help and vouched for them.
Could’ve certainly been done beter, I won’t disagree, but to say it makes No sense at all, I will disagree with.
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WC2 Hord*ids at it still
smh
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And the alliance with the Amani broke down because the Amani decided to no longer support the Horde even if they had been aided in their conquest of Quel’Thalas.
The Horde under Thrall didn’t need the Amani. And the Amani apparently didn’t want to go back with the Horde.
Why is it an issue who the Horde allies itself with?
Everything that happens ingame happens because some writer wills it.
The fact is that stuff happened.
And I fail to see the issue, when a character like Zuljin is shown to prideful to admit he needs the Horde, or the Blood elves so desperate that they would consider making a deal with a moderate leader of a race they were initially enemies with.
Both things seem logical in the setting. And certainly in character for those involved.
Yes, serious. Warmonger is by definition someone that encourages or advocates aggression against other countries or groups.
Culturally speaking, a primitive and savage race as trolls, is based around chieftains that are more often than not, warmongers that establish their rulership through sheer force alone.
And Zuljin was definetly a warmonger that proclaimed his intention to start a war to claim back all the land he thought his (or his people’s), and was willing to take on anyone that stood in his way. Be them troll or any other race.
So yes, Zuljin was a warmonger. Regardless of how righteous his cause was.
???
One thing doesn’t negate the other.
Zandalari are based around some caste system that seems to punish those that are born in the lower societal levels. The Gurubashi, the Drakkari, the Amani,…all created their proper empires through certain degrees of strength shows.
They fought, killed, preyed or otherwise enslaved weaker tribes and other denizens they met along the way.
The troll way isn’t nice, and more often than not, is definitely not peaceful.
And that doesn’t mean they don’t have their own heroes.
That’s because the Zandalari are an entire different thing. They are not like any other tribe.
The Amani never had the status or importance the Zandalari had.
And claiming otherwise just displays ignorance regarding how the troll race works in this game.
No, the Darkspear has zero reasons to praise or revere Zuljin, who fought only for a cause that benefitted his kind: the Forest Trolls.
No.
The error was having lazy writers leaving voice lines from when they hadn’t yet made the distinction between Forest and Jungle trolls.
And left the lines from the first warcrafts, when the Horde did in fact count with Forest troll units, instead of Jungle troll ones we had in Thralls Horde in Warcraft 3.
Much like we have Theramore sailors with Lordaerons L in Classic, or trolls making pot jokes.
They were. Foe doesn’t mean they had to outright kill each other.
Political foes seldom do.
And yes, Gilneas consciously turning a blind eye to the Scourge massacring Lordaeron and attacking the neighbouring human lands, turned the remaining human kingdoms against them.
Varian was all to willing to point that out in Wolfheart.
It does. Asking for an alliance means you want to be allies, not asking means you either don’t care or directly don’t want, to be allies.
Big difference.
Yes. As opposed to the big fat nothing Zuljin decided to offer, as he didn’t even bother try to ally with the faction.
And I’m not judging if the alliance was good or bad. It was either that or zero, as Zuljin didn’t even bother present himself.
Also, time has taught us that Blood elves did in fact bring something to the table.
And if we give Shadows of the Horde any credit, the kind of attitude the Amani would’ve brought in regards to the treatment they’d give the Darkspear, ranks them even lower than the BEs in terms of cordiality and diplomacy.
Yeah, because the other “most aggressive and violent” is the Amani.
And no, I’m not trying to paint them as trash, I’m describing troll culture in WoW.
Trolls are savage, and they are almost feral when it comes down to the treatment of others the deem inferior. And pointing out the fact that theirs is a race with some very blatant classism, isn’t trying to make them look like trash.
It’s stating a fact.
I like that they are that way.
Apparently they would.
They already decided to break away from the Horde the second they felt like it no longer aligned with their more immediate goals.
And they get mad when the Horde ends up receiving aid from someone else? Well, sorry.
I understand if they get pissed, but in that particular regard (who the Horde ends up admitting in their faction), they have nobody to blame but themselves.
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We know. The part where he alone was against letting the Gilneans back into the team after Jaina and Tyrande did their best to convince the other leaders about it. Then Varian shows up too late on purpose and blows it with a Veto. Doesen’t put him in the best light tho.
Even if he came rather lacking regarding the whole diplomacy concept, he did have a point.
And the exchange further reinforced the idea that up until that point, and after the third war incidents, Gilneas was indeed officially out of the list of political allies.
There are other bits in novels that further highlight how the human kingdoms treated each other prior and after the Second War, but this latest example is still a valid one that exemplifies how former allies can turn into foes further down the line (and viceversa), regardless of how “natural” the initial alliance might have seemed.
Is this going of speculation of what would happen if they joined in TBC or back in the second war?
If the Horde help reclaim the Amani land then I don’t see why Zul’jin would leave again.
The Horde didn’t need the Blood Elves either. If the Horde wanted a better foothold on EK then Amani ranks higher than the Blood Elves by a long shot.
Because depending on who it is will depend on how it affects the lore/story? Allying with the Amani would have far less consequences with the lore and make more sense then why actually happened.
Look at how much retconning was needed to get the Blood Elves to join the Horde, the same can’t be said to the Amani. It is as simple as that.
I know it does, that is why I am trying to argue from a natural flow of the story point of view. If events were to play out the most likely outcome would have been the Amani being chosen over the Blood Elves. It is as simple as that.
I mean the Horde could have allied with the Scourge instead, but that is less likely then the two above.
Zul’jin may be prideful but he isn’t stupid. If the Horde promises to help him take back X in some negotiation I fail to see why he wouldn’t take it regardless of the level of arrogance.
He isn’t some sort of Crassus of WoW.
Furthermore, the Blood Elves were desperate but that doesn’t mean they would be accepted. It is one thing to ask for it and another to actually get it. Saying “we want an alliance with blablabla” means nothing.
Lastly for Lor’themar to completely write off the Alliance as possible allies are illogical if the situation is really that desperate. And given how Lor’themar was just as if not more prideful than Zul’jin (as well as the Blood Elves in general) then this just cancels out the Amani side.
Yes, but normally you would use a term for someone who loves fighting and taking over stuff etc… Zul’jin just wanted his core land back.
But I guess it technically counts.
Near enough every race, faction, nation etc… fights for land a conquest. So it just cancels everything out so using this for just the Trolls would just be unfair.
No but you say distance and tribes negate’s heroes, so this logic should apply to everyone no? And if not why is it only used for Trolls?
Alright, but this is just irrelevant to the argument at this point.
I am not arguing that, I am arguing that this is a clear example of Trolls looking up to other Trolls and their heroes, which you have failed to argue about.
He fought against a foreign invading force seeking to drive them from their lands and destroy their holy sites. And Zul’jin paid the price for doing so.
It is the same with any race and its heroes? Why should a Night Elf care about Jarod Shadowsong for fighting against the Burning Legion when they were miles away? Why do Pandas look up to the last emperor despite it being 10,000 years and living miles from that? Why do the various Human Kingdoms look up to Lothar for the exact same reason and so on?
It happens in game, it happens IRL too. And yet you find it idiotic. Great…
Alright then, all quotes cannot be taken seriously anymore because of stupid jokes you can tell, wonderful.
I also love how Theramore was made up from Lordaeron survivors and you have a problem with using their old symbolism.
Gonna need to make a pin on that quote stuff as I bet you’ll use it as evidence for another argument in the future.
Foe “an enemy or opponent.”. So no they were not. They were never an opponent to Stormwind or the Alliance, they were isolationist.
Yes, but they didn’t actually do the killing and wanted to eradicate the humans. And I know you know there is a difference between what Gilneas did and what the Blood Elves did.
Furthermore Genn actually talks about his mistakes he made, whenever have you heard Lor’themar or any Blood Elf regret their mistakes in the second war? When they wanted to kill all the Orcs? It is just swepted under the rug and never seen again.
I can’t even recall when the last time I have heard about either the Forsaken or Blood Elves fighting against the Horde in the second war yet here stuff about how bad humans are or Garithos or Night Elves or whatever every other day.
No, it really doesn’t. Or not at least from the position the Blood Elves were in during the time. You are keeping a nation on life support. That is hardly helping claiming a foothold in EK.
There was never an attempt made nor some sort of negotiation. How can you say he declined it when it never happened in the first place?
It was bad to make and accept it. If the Horde wanted a stronger position and allies which were more fitting then the Amani were there, or to at least make an attempt to do it.
Yes, by the time of like Cata onwards.
New lore overriding old lore to distance the Amani away from the Horde.
Ye I completely disagree. The Amani were not the second worst tribe in this regard. Like Zul’jin just wanted Quel’thalas back, didn’t even bother with Lordaeron or Hinterlands etc… That is not someone who comes across as the second most aggressive tribe at all.
Yes I get it, so what?
…and? You have splinter groups of the Amani join the Horde. That should be enough to throw a spanner in the works.
Ye sure what not. If Sylvanas takes on a Void Lord next expansion and kills it saving the universe and everyone complains about it I can just go “apparently she can defeat them” as no one can argue against it thus I will win every argument.
10/10.
What aid did the Blood Elves give the Horde exactly in TBC? They were on life-support and then later they both destroyed the Amani together. Wonderful.
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