Why do Blood Elves need Horde?

[Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel (Shiar)]

@Ilyasha-thrall

At the beginning of this diskussion you posted half a quote and implied that it was sure that night elves didn’t sabotage the sanctum instead of posting the whole quote and saying that neither their guilt nor their innocence are proven.

I did’nt half post the quote- i posted everything that was said in the completion text of the quests i discussed.

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

NEITHER the Dwarf or the NE Sentinals SABOTAGE’D the Sanctums. Can this lie stop getting propagated already. It was shown in game that they were overloading because of OVERUSE by the BE’s not direct action by anybody else.

This was my original point.

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

Quest text after handing in Incriminating Documents quest to Aeldon Sunbrand-

"From what I can understand of this letter, whoever wrote this did not cause the malfunction, but rather was sent here as a spy to observe the results of it. They call our endeavors reckless and dangerous… but who?

Of course! That envoy from Ironforge! We were fools to trust anyone belonging to the Alliance!".

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

Quest text for the Arcane Instability quest at the West Sanctum, the only sanctum that is malfunctioning-

"It’s about time that dimwit, Caidanis, sent someone this way.

I warned of the dangers of increasing the load on the West Sanctum! Now one of our energy converters is destroyed and arcane wraiths are pouring out of the sanctum!

I’m going to need you to take care of these creatures before we send anyone in for repairs. Make haste!".

That’s what i posted.

@Savotar-argent-dawn

The documents contain detailed maps of different strategic buildings in Eversong Woods. A diagram of an arcane sanctum is also sketched in good detail. There seem to be numerous notes in a language you don’t recognize.

As these were carried by a Darnassian spy, it might be a good idea to bring them to the Captain of the Guard - Aeldon Sunbrand.

That was in the quest description part of the same quest- So tell me how that description uneqivocally says the NE’s sabotaged the sanctums or that anything that was written in the above description changes what i stated in terms of there being no proof in lore that the NE’s sabotaged the sanctums

It showed that the NE’s were spying and were helped by the dwarf ambassador which i have already said happened.

In future dont make BS accusations without knowing what you’re talking about.

[Leíá-argent-dawn (Leíá)]

The evidence, as he has linked again, wasn’t cut short or anything like that.
I have recently done those quests whilst leveling a Blood Elf Priest and I did actually read the quest text and nothing’s changed and the malfunctioning sanctums, from what it seems to me (and I’m a big blood elf fanatic), is the blood elves’ own doing.

Now, as far as hostile spies and invading the land, that was wrong on the part of Ironforge and Darnassus.

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

Ah yes, the Night Elves just ‘happened’ upon a malfunctioning Blood Elven sanctum, right after receiving a letter with a diagram depicting how a sanctum could be sabotaged.

Like, I understand that coincidences happen, but I’d say this is a bit too convenient of a coincidence.

Ultimately the argument circling around whether they actually did it or not is irrelevant, given the circumstances in which they were in, they are tantamount to guilty regardless.

[Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel (Shiar)]

@Calevarn-ashbringer

right after receiving a letter with a diagram depicting how a sanctum could be sabotaged .

Point out were in the description it says that the information they recieved told them exactly how to saboatge the sanctum

@Calevarn-ashbringer

Like, I understand that coincidences happen, but I’d say this is a bit too convenient of a coincidence.

That’s the difference- it’s what “you” think happened, it’s your personal headcannon, which is fine but that’s a million miles from being the Truth/Reality/Facts

@Calevarn-ashbringer

given the circumstances in which they were in, they are tantamount to guilty regardless.

That’s not how innocence and guilt works but okay then

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

Point out were in the description it says that the information they recieved told them exactly how to saboatge the sanctum

Right where the Dwarves gives them the schematics.

There are three reasons in which one would give you a detailed diagram of how a determinate machinery works, and those are:

To build it.
To fix it.
To break it.

The Night Elves weren’t going to build it, and they certainly weren’t there to ensure everything was working nice and well for the Blood Elves, in fact they are an hostile force, mind you.

So the most logical outcome of giving an hostile force a detailed diagram of how a determinate building operates is to disrupt the normal operations of said building.

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

a million miles from being the Truth/Reality/Facts

No, with any piece of writing, you don’t have to take everything you read at face-value, or only what’s explicitly spelled out for you.

You are a human being with the capacity for critical thought.
You can make deductions, based on what the text is very obviously hinting at.

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

That’s not how innocence and guilt works but okay then

Imagine you are found in a dark shady alley by the police, wearing a dark hoodie, with a still-fuming gun pointed at a dead guy with his head split open by a bullet.

Given those circumstances, even if you didn’t actually fire the shot, it’s going to be hard to convince them you’re not guilty.

Assuming the Night Elves didn’t actually do the baddie, they were caught in incredibly suspicious circumstances, and followed from there with open aggression, so the entire debate is rather pointless.

[Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel (Shiar)]

@Calevarn-ashbringer

Right where the Dwarves gives them the schematics.

There are three reasons in which one would give you a detailed diagram of how a determinate machinery works, and those are:

To build it.
To fix it.
To break it.

The Night Elves weren’t going to build it, and they certainly weren’t there to ensure everything was working nice and well for the Blood Elves, in fact they are an hostile force, mind you.

So the most logical outcome of giving an hostile force a detailed diagram of how a determinate building operates is to disrupt the normal operations of said building.

That’s not all the logical outcomes. You missed the most obvious outcome which was to collect information- which is what they were doing because they were spying. Just like their actions at the Ley lines was for information gathering as was stated in the quests.

Did the NE’s damage any other institituion in Quel’Thalas because if apparently damaged the western sanctum why didn’t they do that to the others OR the Rune stones or attack the Farstrider outposts taking out the BE’s 1st line of defence etc

So with the exclusion of proof all anybody has their own personall headcannon and bias when making these accusations. No matter how much posters want this event to have happened…IT didn’t happen. It really is as simple as that.

@Calevarn-ashbringer

You are a human being with the capacity for critical thought.
You can make deductions, based on what the text is very obviously hinting at.

Critical thought doesn’t mean taking parts of information and ignoring others or jumping to assumptions. The text isn’t obviously hinting at anything and i’m getting sick and tired of linking the same black and white information

@Calevarn-ashbringer

Imagine you are found in a dark shady alley by the police, wearing a dark hoodie, with a still-fuming gun pointed at a dead guy with his head split open by a bullet.

Given those circumstances, even if you didn’t actually fire the shot, it’s going to be hard to convince them you’re not guilty.

Except the NE’s spies or even the Dwarf weren’t found standing over a sanctum terminal/console/machinery that was sabotaged holding in their hand a weapon that could have done the deed. They were in the case of the NE’s spying from a distance on the sanctums and the dwarf was spying whilst being shown around as an ambassador.

Also the BE police in this analogy also had another suspect for the “crime”,themselves and their incompetance and risk in overloading the sanctums.

NE actions weren’t quite as clear cut as standing over a dead body with a smoking gun “in a dark hoodie” (like wearing a hoodie is somehow indicative of criminality )

[Blunderhoof-nordrassil (Blunderhoof)]

Why was that quest added though, tell me that?
What was the point of that questchain?
Why was the Nelf set there? Why was the item he carried labelled “Incriminating documents”…what was the point?

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

You missed the most obvious outcome which was to collect information

Then care to tell me why, under your interpretation, the Night Elves needed a diagram that told them in detail how a sanctum worked?

What exactly was the purpose, if not damaging it?

These schematics alone enabled them to sabotage the building. The actual malfunction doesn’t happen in front of you, it’s a missing link you have to deduct. Whether you deduct that it was the Night Elves who were, coincidentally, lurking around the same building when it happened right after receiving a document that enabled them to commit the deed, or that it just happened out of the blue, it’s still deduction.

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

Critical thought doesn’t mean taking parts of information and ignoring others or jumping to assumptions.

Critical thought also means deductions.

Something you are absolutely refuting on a principle.

Because you request and only accept, a source where the Night Elves are called guilty explicitly, otherwise you say they are innocent, since it’s impossible to come to that conclusion without a deduction.

And this is not a fair argumentation.

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

Except the NE’s spies

Except nothing, foreign spies intruding on your territory is incriminating enough.

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

NE actions weren’t quite as clear cut as standing over a dead body with a smoking gun “in a dark hoodie”

And by the way, that wasn’t a metaphor for the Night Elves, since you claimed “that’s not how guilt works” I presented a theoretical scenario in which guilt is presumed from incriminating circumstances.

Much how guilt is going to be presumed regardless of whether the Night Elves actually sabotaged the sanctum or not, because of the incriminating circumstances they were in.

[Leíá-argent-dawn (Leíá)]

@Calevarn-ashbringer

Because you request and only accept, a source where the Night Elves are called guilty explicitly, otherwise you say they are innocent, since it’s impossible to come to that conclusion without a deduction.

But the exact quote, which I remember, is from a Blood Elf Ley-Keeper Elder, who is watching over the Sanctums with the Arcane Wraiths and she explicity tells us that she always thought it foolish to overload the sanctum and she also says this. Remember, she’s a Ley-keeper - she would know a thing or two about the Arcane Sanctums:
Could night elf saboteurs be behind this? I doubt it. With the load we’ve been putting on the West sanctum it was only a matter of time until something went wrong.
https ://wow.gamepedia.com/Ley-Keeper_Velania

I’d personally take her view - an expertise’s view on the situation and go from there.

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

@Leíá-argent-dawn

I’d personally take her view - an expertise’s view on the situation and go from there.

And she also says this, when the incriminating documents are actually found:

Night elves? Here? Those rats!

Do you suppose they had anything to do with the malfunction in my sanctum? If you have any information, you’d better take it to Captain Sunbrand at once!

See, she’s not so certain now that the Night Elves did not do it. She sends you to tell the authorities.

Either way, while her opinion could be taken as a factor on just how the arcane sanctum malfunctioned, it is not really evidence on the Night Elves’ culpability - she herself has contrasting thoughts about it.

[Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel (Shiar)]

@Blunderhoof-nordrassil

Why was that quest added though, tell me that?
What was the point of that questchain?
Why was the Nelf set there? Why was the item he carried labelled “Incriminating documents”…what was the point?

The point of the quest chain and NE presence was this-

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

You wanna know the REAL reason. Blizz had to shoehorn the BE’s into the Horde and had to butcher the lore to do it by having A- Tyrande who knew the BE’s situation, had saved and was saved bu their Prince Kael’thas and had good relations with the leadership at least at the end of the 3rd War suddenly sending sentinals to spy on them like they didn’t know anything about them instead of just sending a NE diplomat.

And B- the Horde faction did not have enough players choosing it, they were outnumberd on the realms and Blizz wanted to correct the discrepancy by giving Horde players a “pretty” race to choose as well attract the Asian market who were more inclined to the aesthetics of BE similar races then say Trolls or Forsaken.

That’s why we had that idiotic NE presence in the Ghostlands and why that was supposed to be reason enough for BE’s to be Horde alongside Sylvanus helping them.

The Quest chain was supposed to give lore reasons as to why the BE’s went Horde. Their actions and that of Ironforge for spying on them and not trusting them to look after themselves and do something crazy (like i don’t know, summon the Burning Legion back to Azeroth- i mean it’s crazy why they thougth that would happen ) made the BE’s decide to cut off ties with the Alliance and join the Horde for acceptance and protection as well as repaying the Forsaken for their help in the Ghostlands.

The NE’s did enough shady crap in Quel’thalas without adding extra imagined charges to their list of crimes.

[Leíá-argent-dawn (Leíá)]

@Calevarn-ashbringer

See, she’s not so certain now that the Night Elves did not do it. She sends you to tell the authorities.

Either way, while her opinion could be taken as a factor on just how the arcane sanctum malfunctioned, it is not really evidence on the Night Elves’ culpability - she herself has contrasting thoughts about it.

But let’s put 1+1 together and make 2.

The dwarf is there to seek out information on the Sanctums.
Now going with what she says first, is it too much out of the realms of possibility that the Night Elves intended on sabotaging the Sanctums, but the Blood Elves beat them to it.

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

@Leíá-argent-dawn

is it too much out of the realms of possibility that the Night Elves intended on sabotaging the Sanctums, but the Blood Elves beat them to it.

You’re right, it’s not out of the realm of possibility.

But this however doesn’t mean that the Night Elves’ sabotaging is out of the realm of possibility either. With all evidence combined, you’ve got to admit that it looks like quite a damning coincidence for the Night Elf spies to conveniently be there, right after obtaining a diagram that enabled them to sabotage the sanctum, when the sanctum starts malfunctioning.

Now, ultimately, it doesn’t matter, because even if the Night Elves did not do it, everything leads the Blood Elves to think that they have anyway.

[Leíá-argent-dawn (Leíá)]

@Calevarn-ashbringer

Now, ultimately, it doesn’t matter, because even if the Night Elves did not do it, everything leads the Blood Elves to think that they have anyway.

Exactly.

We simply don’t know and the Keeper in charge, reports back to the Blood Hawks and they deal with the one who’s asking the strange questions.

It’s not too far to consider that the Night Elves wanted complete destruction of the Sanctums, once the Dwarf was done with his questioning. Incriminating Documents, could have been just that, if the Sin’dorei had not dealt with the situation.

[Blunderhoof-nordrassil (Blunderhoof)]

I’m sorry man, but you’re really grasping here…as already pointed out you ‘conveniently’ left out some stuff, I don’t know why you’d do that if you’re so certain.
But the point of the quest was indeed to show that the Blood Elves could no longer trust the Alliance to have their backs, That was the point.
The ‘Blizzard shoehorned etc’ stuff is irrelevant, and pointless to this discussion, ofcourse they would need to give reasons to further the plot of the Blood Elves moving away from the Alliance and into the Horde.
It also doesn’t really matter in the end if the Night Elves were innocent of sabotage or not(ignoring everything blatantly pointing in that direction and it’s all but bluntly written down for you), what matters is the Horde/Blood Elf player perspective in this, to make them see that the Alliance were no longer Allies.

This happens more though, throughout the game, this is actually what we call # morally grey faction conflict - I know you love it, so let’s take Taurajo as another example, as an Alliance soldier you learn that the responsible commander in the field, wanted a future of peace, and ordered an opening left for the civilians to escape, and his attack was based on false information - For the Horde this is Irrelevant though, because you see a village being sacked by Alliance soldiers, corpses getting mutilated, and civilians getting killed and led into harms way.
I mean come on, you’re claiming to be the adult, surely you see WHY this was written that way, it’s part of the game’s story. From a Horde soldier/ player’s perspective Hawthorne’s well meaning gestures are irrelevant.

So I come around to the terms I used ‘White washing’, as you pointed out, being swept under the rug, may not be entirely accurate, as certain events got adressed again in BFA…however, only once…by as single NPC in each case and never adressed or talked about again.
When the Horde does a foul, it’s immediate and more than Obvious, when the Alliance does it…it’s Always something iffy, you make that quite clear in your posts, something Always excuses them or softens the crime.

Hell, remember Baine groveling before Jaina when he returns her brother, all ashamed for Theramore…a crime he tried to prevent, and actually warned Jaina about before it happened, making sure the casualties are reduced.
I’ve yet to catch an Alliance character in such a position, because they’re Always exampt.

[Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel (Shiar)]

@Calevarn-ashbringer

Then care to tell me why, under your interpretation, the Night Elves needed a diagram that told them in detail how a sanctum worked?

What exactly was the purpose, if not damaging it?

These schematics alone enabled them to sabotage the building. The actual malfunction doesn’t happen in front of you, it’s a missing link you have to deduct. Whether you deduct that it was the Night Elves who were, coincidentally, lurking around the same building when it happened right after receiving a document that enabled them to commit the deed, or that it just happened out of the blue, it’s still deduction.

I already anwered that question previously so please read and stop making me repeat myself. They werwe spying,gathering information,doing what they were sent to do. We have their actions in the rest in Quel’thalas for comparison- all based around gathering information and not destroying or attacking institutions.

Your jumping to the conclusion you want to have happened and im done with entertaining this idiocy. There is no proof in game,in lore that says they did what you think or assume or can “deduce” they did. Everything outside of that is bias and headcannon- that’s the reality, that’s the facts.

Anybody else that reads this thread can see the information and make up their own minds. This is just a waste of energy for me repeating the same thing a million different ways and you people still coming back with inane responses .

None have you have been able to present anything outside of your own headcannons and stretching the lore to breaking point. Something i actually dispise when it comes to using lore to make a point.

[Leíá-argent-dawn (Leíá)]

@Blunderhoof-nordrassil

It also doesn’t really matter in the end if the Night Elves were innocent of sabotage or not(ignoring everything blatantly pointing in that direction and it’s all but bluntly written down for you), what matters is the Horde/Blood Elf player perspective in this, to make them see that the Alliance were no longer Allies.

The Blood Elves themselves, believe that they caused the malfunction.
It’s a two way street on whether the Night Elves would be capable of pulling it off. Either they could, because they are simply - laughable - at wielding the arcane and holding knowledge on the substance, or it was both Blood Elf overload and Night Elf sabotage that caused it.

Maybe the Night Elves tried fixing it, but screwed up. They got form for doing that.

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

They werwe spying,gathering information,doing what they were sent to do.

And yet, they needed an accurate diagram of how an arcane sanctum worked in detail.

Why?

Why is that information relevant if not for the purpose of sabotage?

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

all based around gathering information and not destroying or attacking institutions.

Well, to be fair, they occupied several Blood Elven shrines to achieve that information gathering.

Occupying foreign territory is very much aggressive.

They also have ambushers, fighters and other units of infantry from their military, which absolutely indicate that they weren’t just innocently gathering information “without attacking institutions” as you attempt to portray.

@Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel

None have you have been able to present anything outside of your own headcannons and stretching the lore to breaking point.

We have, you just refuse the evidence you are given.

You refuse the very concept of deduction, while making deductions yourself, and call it headcanon.

[Blunderhoof-nordrassil (Blunderhoof)]

@Leíá-argent-dawn

The Blood Elves themselves, believe that they caused the malfunction.
It’s a two way street on whether the Night Elves would be capable of pulling it off. Either they could, because they are simply - laughable - at wielding the arcane and holding knowledge on the substance, or it was both Blood Elf overload and Night Elf sabotage that caused it.

Maybe the Night Elves tried fixing it, but screwed up, they got form for doing that.

Not entirely, Ley keeper Velania believed the malfunction was caused by their own doing, after she hears about the spy and the documents she isn’t quite sure, to say the least, Calevarn showed her tekst response to you, you read it.
So how can you still be so sure it was indeed the Blood Elves own mishandling of the Sanctum?
Clearly the quest character had her doubts herself.
That said, maybe she was still in disbelief that the Alliance, who were once their allies would do that - But I’ll freely admit that’s speculation on my part, so.