You started with throwing other factions in.
We’re not discussing that, we’re only discussing Zandalari -who after so many mistreatments still are a separate faction with authonomy that is NOT part of the Horde.
We’re discussing their reasons for vengeance. I don’t see myself as hypocrite when I want both Zandalari and Gilneans getting their Justice
If you want to see Jaina pay for any of her past crimes, pray that Golden quits the writing team. Otherwise expect more righteous crimes committed by Jaina be forgiven in a brief scenario.
That’s what I’m afraid off. Witch should hang long time ago. If she was Horde char she would be perma dead. But since she is Alliance she gets even rezzed.
Edit: you know what? I am temped to make artwork of that and send it to Golden to get a hint.
Debatable if we are to compare specific races.
Read my previous comment, or some websites about her lore. She already set out to ally with the Horde, and since she was (or Zul was) negotiating with Sylvanas when she had already started a war with the Alliance, the Alliance had intercepted her ship and imprisoned her to prevent this alliance from forming.
Also, I’m not sure where you’re getting the ‘send forces to kill her’ stuff from. Did anybody try to kill them? They were trying to subdue them. Anduin didn’t send the SW guards on the Horde to murder the escapees. Jaina was also making them surrender at the docks, she wasn’t preparing to kill them. I mean, the escapees murdered entire squads of Alliance on their way out, yet didn’t lose a single person from their party (well, plot armor and all that 
).
Just because he said he wouldn’t help them doesn’t mean the Zandalari weren’t immediately aiding and abetting the Horde in their war. They allowed the Horde army unhindered movement, and in fact helped them along with their infrastructure. Just because they didn’t send Zandalari along on the Horde’s War Campaign missions doesn’t mean that they weren’t helping them. And clearly, both Rastakhan and Talanji thought that this was a totally acceptable thing in order to benefit their empire, no matter how many Alliance and Kul Tirans the Horde slaughters.
I’m not blaming the Zandalari for not caring about Alliance lives, they just can’t be surprised that they got treated like the Horde auxiliaries they were. Oh no, the Alliance dares to attack us to force us to surrender? Who could have seen this coming, after I reached out to the Alliance’s enemies and gave them the navy protection and the safe haven they needed to wage their war?
I didn’t say it was her fault, but it was a large contributing factor. She, who has no political mandate countermanded the orders of the sovereign (who just happens to be her father) and the ruling Council by going behind their back to extend a diplomatic offer to the Horde that she had no authority to make. She does this to a faction that is currently fighting a war that they started. Then knowing all of this, she still goes ahead with the plan and shelters Horde forces in her city, knowing that the Horde already has enemies and is making even more enemies with their war campaign quests.
Instead of seeking internal reform, appealing to the people of Zandalar, trying to campaign to replace some of the Zanchuli council, or trying to convince her father, she just goes behind his back and invites an external hostile force and all the baggage of their current war into the city and uses them for her own ends. Can she be frustrated that Zandalar didn’t just get away with it unscathed after they had benefited for months? Yes. Can she be justifiably outraged that the Alliance tried to force Rastakhan to surrender and renounce the Horde that she invited into the city? No.
So a quick strike that had minimal casualties (since the Alliance has lured the army and the navy to Nazmir with their fogstick to clear the way to Rastakhan), and was about making an enemy faction leader surrender and stop sheltering war criminals == burning alive of a city full of civilians with no provocation while none of your factions had been war for years == dropping a nuke on a civilian city with the intent to cause the maximum potential damage? Horde logic at work, I see 
Those comparisons to Theramore and Teldrassil don’t hold up.
So, what’s with this statement?:
Regardless of how big the “bite” is, given your words, same logic applies.
You can’t engage in war profiteering for months then cry foul when the war bites you in the backside, remember?
You might be in for quite some chomping.
And, I’m curious, if there is some line that limits the “reasonable backlash”, who exactly decides how “severe” said bite is?
Theramore was on open warfare for 2 years against the horde their warmachine reached Mulgore and Durotar.
I give you that assault on Teldrasill didn’t hold up and I don’t have anything against nelf players wanting vengeance.
But that doesn’t make Alliance assault on Zandalari right. They still laid havoc across streets and killed their King that had the least to do in HvA conflict
The cannon volleys sent at her ship were warning shots?
Then I guess that the attacks on Night elf lands, and human ones, shouldn’t catch either race by surprise, as they were treated like Alliance allies.
Most of the above goes with my previous query.
I’m sorry, but these are some blatant double standards.
The Zandalari have about the same rights to feel justly outraged at the Alliance treatment, as the night elves, humans, or any other Alliance race, has with the Horde.
The kind of reasoning you are going on right now works both ways. And if we apply it for everyone, Night elves wanting vengeance for the attacks they suffered is about as unreasonable. Jaina going nuts for Theramore is about as unreasonable.
Kul Tiras, and even Stormwind, feeling vengeful becomes about as unreasonable.
You can’t play the “Well, if they didn’t want to get attacked, they should’ve reconsidered their allegiances” card, and apply it only to one of the two sides.
Want to argue that? Fine. Then if Night elves didn’t want to get attacked by the Horde, they should’ve probably left the Alliance. If Jaina didn’t want Theramore to be attacked, she should’ve reconsidered her allegiances.
If Kul Tiras didn’t want to get invaded, they should’ve probably not given shelter to the Alliance army. And so on.
Personally, I think this is a flawed logic. But that’s the obvious implications of your argument here.
Do you realize that Alliance players would have welcomed an assault on Orgrimmar or other Horde City instead of Dazar’Alor?
For that blame Blizzard, not Alliance players. It was something not asked, but was shoved in our throats.
BTW, do you realize that from Vanilla there was no successful Alliance assault on Horde?
Yes I realize that. But I was arguing with player that tried to make it look like Zandalri vengeance is unreasonable. I don’t find it unreasonable and I don’t blame alliance players for that but devs alone for making out of another troll capitol a raid.
However from in universe narrative I do want for Jaina to pay with her head.
It was just as right as it was for Talanji and Rastakhan to team up with the Horde knowing what atrocities they comitted just before and continued to commit while under their aegis. They weren’t the finger that pulled the trigger, but they held up the ammunition belt that allowed the Horde warmachine to continue firing. Without the protection of the Zaldalari navy, without the support and infrastructure of the Zandalari, the Horde war effort on the isles would never have gotten off the ground and the war effort would have been confined to the main continents (and likely ended fast thus saving countless lives on both sides). The Zandalari enabled the Horde and expanded and extended the war just because they wanted someone to bail out their Empire.
I do agree that the Zandalari paid relatively more than they ought to have compared to other more involved members of the Horde that were far more responsible, so they got the rough end of their deal (although let’s be honest Talanji being Queen was always the goal which is why Blizz had to kill Rastakhan and Zandalar is better off with her). But that has to do with Sylvanas’s and her boytoy’s plot armor, and how the Alliance is apparently happy turning a blind eye to Rexxar and the others when they do the killing; not with the Alliance being unjustified in moving against the Zandalari. And even at their worst, the Alliance minimized casualties and only tried to make their leader surrender, instead of planned to murder him or raze his city or wipe out his people. Mounting a quick strike to force Rastakhan to surrounder and stop enabling the Horde’s war crimes isn’t an out-of-proportion response to the Zandalari enabling the Horde’s war crimes for months.
Common sense does. If The Night Elves were harboring the Scourge with whom Sylvanas was at war, and Sylvanas makes her way to Teldrassil to force Malfurion to surrender and stop harboring the Scourge, nobody would be outraged.
If Garrosh had lead a strike team (with the minimum casualties after making sure as few enemies as possible were actually fought) to make Jaina stop giving the Alliance access to Theramore, nobody would be outraged.
If Sylvanas had lead a quick strike into Brennedam and fought as few people as possible, in order to make the mayor stop providing shelter and supplies to the Alliance who comitted a war crime against her people, nobody would be outraged (but they weren’t even providing that to the Alliance, they had literally nothing to do with the Alliance at that point, and it was a war that Sylvanas started anyway).
So the burning of Teldrassil, the nuking of Theramore, and the firebombing of Brennadam are nothing like the Battle of Dazar’Alor. I hope the explanations above showed why not? That’s why your attempts to draw a parallel and accuse me of ‘flawed logic’ don’t hold up. That’s what my comment was about.
The Zandalari weren’t allied with the Horde before. The Horde commits a war crime at Teldrassil and are then at war with the Alliance. The Zandalari still seek an alliance with the Horde despite this, and get mad when the Alliance seeks to prevent this. They then give refuge, access, etc. to the Horde for their mutual benefit, and allow the Horde to drag out the war for longer and into the BfA islands as well. They are then faced with a strike team that tries to make their king stop supporting war criminals, and make him surrender. That’s not without reason, and it’s not a war crime, unlike the examples that you tried to compare it to.
She tries to join a mutually beneficial battle arrangement with the Horde, who are at war and have just finished comitting unprovoked genocide, willing to provide them with aid against the Alliance if the Horde help her empire. The Alliance intercept her instead and keep her as a comfortable prisoner (like Saurfang). She then breaks out of prison and they murder their way through the guards of Stormwind. The Alliance seeks to capture them and lead them back to the Stockades. They murder the guards on the docks too. Jaina just tries to make them surrender. Zul actually set the whole city on fire (don’t even get me started on that 
). Jaina teleports instead of ice-spiking them through the head. The Alliance ships then set out in pursuit and shoot at their ship (they are within distance to fish them out of the sea and take them prisoner if their ship actually sinks, so they wouldn’t have just drowned)…Alliance bastards, a bunch of homicidal maniacs without any reason amiright? 
Genn,Tyrande,Malfurion,Talanji are not gonna sit idle in 8.3 especially after that ‘‘where is Tyrande question’’.
Horde players will get a choice to support the Zandalari in their offensive while Alliance players will get the option to side with the Night Elves.
This has to happen.
No it wasn’t. Talanji isn’t omipotent and she doesn’t have internet in Stormwind stockades.
It’s ridiculous to blame them for faults that Horde did when they had zero involvement in it. Attack the Horde Not Zandalari.
Kill Saurfang, Sylvanas not Rastakhan.
This entire post is based on strawmanning.
I would like this very much. But let’s be honest. If anyone has a choice in this, this time it will be Alliance only. And they will “teach” us, Tyrande was “wrong”, for wanting vengeance.
I’m not blaming them for what the Horde did in the past at all! I’m also not blaming them for considering the death of the Alliance and Kul Tirans at the Horde’s hands later on an acceptable price for the help that the Zandalari empite got. But they are wrong if they then think that the Alliance trying to force Rastakhan to surrender and stop supporting this mad war-crime-riddled war for his own empire’s gain was unwarranted and that the Zandalari were the wronged party. And Talanji is also wrong in assuming that the Alliance deserve vengeance for killing her father, when it was Rastakhan who yolo-charged them instead of sitting down and negotiating how perhaps he can stop supporting Sylvanas’s war that he and his daughter enabled to spiral out of control across Zandalar and Kul Tiras instead of keeping it in the Eastern Kingdoms. None of this is a strawman.
And as for Talanji not knowing what the Horde did, really? Even if we assume that she got captured before she heard about the Horde’s recent actions, and nobody from the Alliance had come to chat with them in the prison, the boat journey was long enough for them to have a chat, and there were tons of Horde characters around afterwards.
But let’s be real, it didn’t make any difference to her what the Horde did before or under Zandalar’s navy’s protection later. And I’m not suggesting that it should have made a difference to her. Just saying that if she considers the life of countless Kul Tiran and Alliance a reasonable price to pay for the Horde’s help in Zandalar, then she also needs to consider it reasonable that the Alliance consequently try to talk her father down from supporting the Horde in taking the life of the aforementioned countless Kul Tiran and Alliance.
Any chance you’re Sereluna?
Because I have Vietnam flashbacks.
For me guilt by assosication is not acceptable excuse. and ofc Rastakhan would never surrend they only aggrevated him even more. It shows how little Alliance knows about nature of trolls.
Enabling is not guilt by association. The Horde wouldn’t have been able to spread the war to Zandalar and Kul Tiras, if Talanji/Rastakhan hadn’t enabled them. They wouldn’t have been able to hide behind the navy of Zandalar (that the Alliance couldn’t take on directly). They wouldn’t have been able to move their troops quickly from one part of the world to the next and launching assaults across the warfronts. They wouldn’t have been able to firebomb Brennedam and establish footholds across Kul Tiras which at that point had nothing to do with the Alliance even. They wouldn’t have been able to drag out the war for months and cause the loss of countless more lives on both sides of the conflict.
This isn’t association, it’s complicity.
And lol, it has nothing to do with the nature of trolls. It had to do with common sense. But as I mentioned, the only reason BoD happened was because they had to force some faction/faction raid in there, and the only reason Rastakhan was confronted directly and the only reason he yolo-d them on Bwonsamdi juice was so that Blizz writers can kill him off and make way for Talanji.
We get it. you are wrong. You can stop. We won’t become any vengeance, we know it. That’s how it works for Trolls in WoW.
But I have no idea what you’re arguing here.
Vengeance for Rastakhan is the right choice for any Troll.
Look just because you have a troll brigade defending your troll vengeance rawr nonense and drawing fake parallels to completely unrelated events, it doesn’t make you right. 
Please, submit your case to the International Criminal Court for review and see whether they consider the Zandalari innocent bystanders who unjustly got swept up in the conflict with a reasonable cause to demand reparations from the Alliance, or actual complicit actors who enabled war criminals. (PS: It’s the latter 
)
You know there were Zandalari defending with King Rastakhaan right? Its from a defender the description, so I’d say its more cannon than ever since it isnt biased.
Its a Zandalari survivor telling the tale.
Ur argument is stupid the least (no offense) like
Blue attacked so their version is canon.
Yeah but red were defending so their version is cannon too. They were there lol
In fact, the Horde version makes more sense since Rastakhaan defys them and calls them savages, since it makes more sense to “fk off” somebody who is rude at you