Will Dishonorable Kills Be Added?

Re-Opening old thread I found (now read-only, from last year)
Shoutout @Tadaharu for his original post -
"For those who don’t know, dishonorable kills (DHK for short) was a penalty system intended to prevent high level players from camping important NPCs - civilians (quest givers, flight masters, etc.). You would lose a substantial amount of honor if you killed them. It was introduced in patch 1.5 and removed in TBC.

This system had a big negative (unintended?) side effect, in that it stopped virtually all town/city raids by anyone who was trying to get honor, because civilians were almost guaranteed to get hit by some AoE and the penalties were drastic (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF9yEZLB9jk).

To make matters worse, it actually never fixed the underlying issue, as those who didn’t care about the honor system could still keep killing civilian NPCs without any penalty. If Blizzard is really worried about people camping NPCs (I don’t think it is that important), please make them untargetable/passive, like children already are.

I don’t care what patch we start with, but town raids were one of the more interesting parts of world PvP, and a common instigator for escalation, and I definitely want to relive that."

As title says, I am an oldschool vanilla player (Despite being 5 years old back in 2004)
I played my trusty Blobehead, right up until release of Wotlk, It took me 4 years to reach level 55 :stuck_out_tongue:

Back to main topic.

My fav experience during Vanilla WoW or (classic, whatever you wanna call it) was killing npcs / players in towns, in open world pvp, it was such a big thing to form huge parties, even at low levels, and raid a town.

Especially in places like tarren mill, vs southshore, it was by far the most fun thing for me to do as a casual, pvp player.

I hate being confined to being forced to pvp in a battlegrounds for fear of losing my honor rank, and once DHK’s got added into the game I feel it drastically affected my enjoyment of the game.
(not because I’m a griefer who enjoyed killing low level important npc’s)

But 1.) because those npc’s were not properly marked, and it was sometimes unclear which npc’s you could / could not kill
2.) Sometimes you’d get players in your team who did not care and killed those npc’s regardless, and you would get punished for the behaviour of those players.
3.) Players would still come and deliberately kill these npc’s anyway (griefers)
It did not disencourage them at all and in fact, I’d say the type of players who went around to kill those npc’s in the first place, are the same type of players who would enjoy losing honor points for doing such acts.

The whole reason DHK’s was implemented, was to stop griefers from killing important npc’s and effecting others gameplay in a negative way.

(Instead of adding back DHK’s, I feel they should be removed completely)

I disagree that these npc’s should be untargetable / invulnerable, however they should have very short respawn times, so if they did get killed. (whether by accident, or on purpose, it would not effect the playerbase in such a large way)

One of the greatest and most epic moments for me when was when Alliance would try to raid crossroads, and there would be 40-50 alliance turds, running around crossroads :smiley: trying to mess with my levelling, and I would land a killing blow on an alliance scum, twice my level, somehow, or charging them and giving a one second stun, that would help a higher level horde, ally kill him, and I would feel useful.

Really felt the tension of “War” in World of "War"craft, and for me the open world pvp, and open world city raiding was the BEST ASPECT of the entire WoW game in general.

I am not totally against DHK’s.
And would not really be that upset if they are going to be implemented, but I do feel that Huuuuuuge Open World wars should be encouraged, and would make the game much more enjoyable, for a large proportion of the playerbase.

(I mean what is the Local defense, and World Defense channels ever going to be used for, if players are too scared to do city raids as a team, and forced to solo raid a town, or only stick with their 2-3 trusty friends they can trust to go to a city, and not kill (whether purposely or accidently, kill a civilian flagged npc)

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Yes. Blizzard has said Dishonourable Kills will be implemented when the Honour system is introduced in phase 2 (whenever that is), along with Honour and BGs.

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Yes

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Are you aware of if it will punish all players of raid / party, or just the player who kills / aggros the NPC?
thanks.

Are u asking if it will be in or do u want to argue for it not to be in? I mean u can argue but it isn’t going to change anything.

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So don’t group with players who will end up getting you dishonorable kills. They’re going to be in and that’s that.

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Both, the thread is a rant & also a question / discussion post.
I want to see others opinions on the matter, as DHK’s were added 43 days after P2 originally from what I have researched, so if it’s intended to be a complete relaunch of Vanilla, then there should be a 43 day hiatus after release of P2 until DHK’s are added.

In my opinion they are totally useless, and do not stop griefing at all, as I said in my post.
(They were a part of vanilla 1.12, and being punished is definitely not a bad thing)
As far as I know dev team did ask for discussion on things so they could have more ideas on what to adjust in the relaunch of classic.

I’m kinda a little upset, thinking that Open world pvp city raids will be killed off because of half the players being too scared of an accidental or purpose (troll) killing quest npc’s.

I just hope the legendary open world war’s will be in classic, once P2 rolls out.

But either way, as I said, I don’t care, I enjoy the game for what it is.
I wasn’t sure if it’s going to be added or not, and this was to find out & also find out other peoples opinions on DHK’s.

@Narcind
Not all of us have 40+ friends to group up with, to go safely do a city raid.

And it’s not hard for someone to accidently kill that “level 10 bread vendor” from crossfire, by accident.

I’m not a serious player, and not too bothered If I lose some honor rank points by accidently (or even purposely killing an npc), but It would upset me if a large proportion of the player base is against open world war, just because they’re scared of losing some of their pvp honor rank.
(which would be the case)

City raids have always been one sided, stormíng to the leader and that’s it.
(Horde point of view, gotta love them back doors!)

If you want real wpvp raid vs raid, go to HIllsbrad foothills.
The battles always happen in-between the opposing towns, so no real threat of getting any DHKs.

There has never been any honor gain in running into Darkshire or Crossroads to slap lowbies around, thats how you get dishonor.

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Not in my experience I have seen plenty of raids on cities beaten off.

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Everything indicates everybody in party/raid will be affected by dishonorable kills.

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As I said, I’m not a serious pvper, or player, and do not care much for honor gain (atleast not atm) The fact of the matter is biiiig battles used to happen at all parts of the world, all through out my out my levelling experience in Vanilla, DHK’s weren’t added till I got to around level 30+ and levelling in stranglethorn, so it would impact my “Classic Experience” and I may not get the same nostalgia I was hoping, due to the fact there’s not constant action going on at every single village / town in the game, it was such a fun part of the game, and without it, the “World Defence” & “Local Defence” channels may as well not exist in the first place imho. But there’ll always be players who disagree, Perhaps I just enjoyed being a pleb and charging a higher level to help kill him, too much, the satisfaction it gave me, was immeasureable xD

There’s no dishonor for killing lowbie players, fortunately :smiley: this would encourage low level players to run into a high lvl players blizzard deliberately to f*** with them

As I said I was 5 years old playing Vanilla, I remember getting killed by higher level players while levelling in the xroads, plentyyy of times, & I loved it, I loved when a huge battle would escalate, even at lower levels & as a lower level could use a warrior charge, help one of my ally’s get a kill (or if im lucky) get a killing blow, and feel so useful in an everlasting, open world battle, despite being a level 18 pleb warrior. (Imagine you as a lvl 18 pleb 5 year old kid, helped kill a ?? Skull Enemy alliance, you would pretty much be Jizzing all over the place lulxD

Well a fix would be making these civillians passive and AoE immune, that way they cannot interfere negatively with serious city raids and those who want to troll by killing those have to actively target them.

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This is necessary, imagine what would happen if you make a grief run and one is just a trash character thats only purpose is to kill the npc for grefing while the others clear guards so the grief trash char can grief properly. So yes it is needed to punish all so that serious pvp players will weed out idiots killing those npc’s. if you dont do that you open esaxtly above descriped griefing possibility and keep mostly everyone involved unharmed.

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Does anyone know how heavy a DHK counts?

I mean, is one DHK equal in value is a regular HK? So lets say, in a raid someone kills two NPC’s and you get 2 DHK’s, is that like they just distract 2 HK’s from your daily ranking count? So if in the next BG you kill two people, it is undone? or is it heavier?

How big is the impact really?

@Diokhan - Very, big impact, actually, from what I can remember (if you would watch the youtube video just having 14 DHK’s could stop you from ever being able to achieve High Warlord Rank ingame even if a PARTY MEMBER or RAID MEMBER was the one who made those 14 DHK’s and you had NOTHING to do with it, a few DHK’s can impact you from being able to reach max rank) from what I can remember, I don’t know the exact numbers perhaps someone else, may be able to guide us to the correct information, with exact, statistics & figures.

Immunity, would work, but be kind of annoying (especially for those on the rp servers) , if anything just remove punishment, but make the npc’s (the civilian npc’s) spawn extremely fast, so no one is unaffected, like the second they are dead, they just instantly respawn again like 15 sec later, I think this makes more sense.)

But then with that argument, I guess they might as well just be immune.

The thing is … this DHK system, NEVER did stop griefing, it NEVER did work as intended, and contributed jackall, to the game, honestly, it’s purpose of as to why it was added, in 1.12, DID NOT work, as I said, if anything it made griefers, want to grief EVEN MORE.

The type of players who go around killing low level quest npcs & vendors, are not the type of players, who care about losing honor points.

The system is ineffective & also inefficient at serving it’s TRUE, PURPOSE.

Hopefully they will be here to stay, there should be a line between playing in a dangerous PvP world and not being able to play the game at all. You need very little effort to stop the progress of tens of players if you grief, say, Lakeshire NPCs. And calling for help does not really solve the problem, since even in the best case scenario you will still be disabling more resources from the opposite side than yours’ will be investing. And even if you’re right that DHK does very little to prevent such griefing, then only a more enforcing system could replace it, like the NPC immunity you mentioned.

And while people like you have to be careful when choosing their raid members, I actually really like the idea of a nasty griefer changing his mind about caring for the honor system, but being unable to compensate for his past behaviour at that point.

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I actually do agree with you tbh, what you said about the nasty griefer permanently paying for his decisions, is ACTUALLY a very good thing, tbh.

Now that I think of it from your point of view, I may actually think it’s a good thing overall ^^

Very wise man…
Very wise man indeed!

you forgot 4Head

Basically that means, if you want to rank in PvP, you do not participate in organized world PvP because you can never tell who will kill an NPC, even if its by accidental mis targeting, or one getting caught in an AoE.

It was in Vanilla so most likely will be in Classic too. Does not mean its a good system. Makes a lot more sense if the actual person who did it got the punishment. Not “guilty by association”.

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At least not near towns where you might end up killing civilians. Nothing’s stopping you from participating in large scale world pvp in blackrock mountain or eastern plaguelands, for example.

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