World of Don't use your Main

[Thýri-doomhammer]

@Rayzens-stormscale

Go play a ret paladin doing dailies and old content. Mister DRUID.

Do you see me cry because I can’t wear plate or bubble ?

What I mean here is that you make choice. You can’t have it all. Get over it. And that old raids/dailies argument is really laughable. Which is why I commented in the first place, for fun factor.

If you want a more serious discussion, then, maybe consider that this “reduced effectiveness” is relative to everyone else. So… Maybe it’s a good move if players can learn not to be stupid for once.
Stupid as in “no you can’t join our +2 because you don’t have BiS everything + sockets + enchants + optimal covenant + right class/spec/talent combo + whatever arbitrary stupid thing some youtuber told you it’s a nice thing to have yet you’re still taking 100% damage in that blood poodle on the ground and causing wipe because you’re a paladin with 1% speed. But that’s ok, you can blame blizzard for locking you with the slow covenant”-kind of stupidity.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Rayzens-stormscale

Next you’ll say this isn’t a big stretch.

It’s a deliberate hyperbole but it’s the same basic argument. You don’t care what impact your ideas have on the game provided you can play however you want to.

Now imagine it’s not you making that argument, but instead it’s a 10 year old kid who likes cheat codes, and all of a sudden the conversation is very different.

Surely you can see that “I should be able to play however I want and do anything I want with no restrictions and you can just choose not to use it” is an argument that does not only apply to you?

Sometimes you gotta say no as a designer to avoid destroying the game to appease, not entertain but appease, people who don’t understand it.

@Rayzens-stormscale

Yeah 1-2 weeks not being able to switch, is definitely not time-gating… sure sure.

No, time-gating is impeding content behind time. This system doesn’t do that since you can swap to each covenant and experience the entire story with no delay the first time.

The rate at which the soulbinds unlock IS timegating. Swapping covenants is not.

@Rayzens-stormscale

Hey guess what. That wikipedia definition does NOT RESTRICT what it means to be an RPG.

Precisely. That’s the problem with it. It says virtually anything is an RPG as long as it has a virtual world and a character. That’s nowhere near precise enough to define RPG.

Defining an RPG implies defining what isn’t one.

@Rayzens-stormscale

Call Blizz and tell them they have no MMO here with millions of players.

They had more players while it was developed by the guys I know, so… yeah whatever mate.

@Rayzens-stormscale

That’s an EXAMPLE. It’s not a RESTRICTION. Learn what these mean.

Again, it’s an awful definition.

Under these definitions Myst is also an RPG. It isn’t. It’s an exploration adventure game.

An RPG must give the player the ability to tell part of the story.

@Rayzens-stormscale

We were talking about professions. Are you seriously this out of arguments that you have to resort to baltant lies?

Lol blatant lies. Okay, professions then. There’s special soulbind pieces for virtually all of them, and you know what a common complaint is? That there aren’t enough.

If professions were better, that choice would be more meaningful - but the choice is still there. Do you want better professions?

@Rayzens-stormscale

You’re ridiculous if you think it’s a 3% difference. And also NO GAMEPLAY difference? Stop trolling.

Oh, sure there’s a gameplay difference. That’s the whole point.

But yeah, in point of fact for most mage builds the difference is somewhere around the 3-5% mark according to sims.

Perfect balance is impossible if you have any differences. The only concern is whether the balance is good enough that you can complete the game with any character. In the context of StarCraft that’s a lot more specific because it implies winning WCS, but in the context of WoW it’s far less so. It isn’t tuned to be quite as hard.

[Rayzens-stormscale]

@Thýri-doomhammer

Do you see me cry because I can’t wear plate or bubble ?

Plate and bubble argument… so original, funny nonetheless.

@Thýri-doomhammer

What I mean here is that you make choice. You can’t have it all. Get over it. And that old raids/dailies argument is really laughable. Which is why I commented in the first place, for fun factor.

I can make my choices now in BFA and select what i want, when i want.
I can’t do that in Shadowlands with the new stupid time-gated systems./

That’s the problem. Not my class.

@Thýri-doomhammer

If you want a more serious discussion, then, maybe consider that this “reduced effectiveness” is relative to everyone else. So… Maybe it’s a good move if players can learn not to be stupid for once.
Stupid as in “no you can’t join our +2 because you don’t have BiS everything + sockets + enchants + optimal covenant + right class/spec/talent combo + whatever arbitrary stupid thing some youtuber told you it’s a nice thing to have yet you’re still taking 100% damage in that blood poodle on the ground and causing wipe because you’re a paladin with 1% speed. But that’s ok, you can blame blizzard for locking you with the slow covenant”-kind of stupidity.

Going with ST conduits and Covenant choices in all other content, will not make you more skilled. Stop spouting such crap. You’ll do less dps in aoe, less movement capabilities, less defenses.
That’s it.

This argument holds no water and is dumb as rocks.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

snip

Maybe go and learn the difference between:
I can’t freely change my Covenants and Conduits.
Versus
I can change them but i don’t want to.

Guess what, you can say NO, i can’t say NO to the time-gating.

It’s not of the same magnitude the issues of being locked versus just saying NO to something.

Until you learn that difference, you’re just willfully ignorant.
So stop trolling and learn some basic common sense.

[Sawyyer-draenor]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

You’ve told Blizzard to optimise and streamline away identity, character, exploration, and open world social interactions because it was kindda inconvenient. Those were the core design pillars! That is the centre around which WoW always revolved. You’ve optimised WoW out of WoW, and you’re constantly complaining about how boring and empty the game is. Well, guess why?

No it was Blizzard that transformed WoW that way, not the players.

Then when told otherwise, Blizzard claimed for years “you think you want that, but you don’t”.

[Alexima-kazzak (Alexima)]

Classic is terrible. Other than Nostalgic reasons, I honestly can’t find a single good reason as to why anyone would be interested in that slow grind they call a game.

extremely easy end game, followed by torture grinding for everything you need.

It was good for 15 years ago. Not anymore.

[Rayzens-stormscale]

I can’t stand waiting 3 seconds for mounting up or having to separately loot every mob… ughh

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Rayzens-stormscale

Maybe go and learn the difference between:
I can’t freely change my Covenants and Conduits.
Versus
I can change them but i don’t want to.

Guess what, you can say NO, i can’t say NO to the time-gating.

I know “snip” means you didn’t read it, not that you did and decided to respond simply.

Get over yourself. I certainly believe I provided a valid argument and snipping it out to ignore it is not discussion, it’s just perceived authority… ironically, actually.

@Sawyyer-draenor

No it was Blizzard that transformed WoW that way, not the players.

Then when told otherwise, Blizzard claimed for years “you think you want that, but you don’t”.

Absolutely. And it isn’t the first time Jay Allan Brack has done this. He did the same to Star Wars: Galaxies.

But it was the players who asked for it, because they did indeed think they did, but they didn’t. His problem is he applied the argument the wrong way around because he doesn’t have even the tiniest clue what an MMORPG is, and he’s now proven that twice.

[Thýri-doomhammer]

@Rayzens-stormscale

I can make my choices now in BFA and select what i want, when i want.
I can’t do that in Shadowlands with the new stupid time-gated systems./

That’s the problem. Not my class.

Same thing. Unless you can turn into a bird, go stealth or summon demons with your paladin. Can you ?

@Rayzens-stormscale

Going with ST conduits and Covenant choices in all other content, will not make you more skilled. Stop spouting such crap. You’ll do less dps in aoe, less movement capabilities, less defenses.
That’s it.

This argument holds no water and is dumb as rocks.

It’s a pretty damn strong argument, in fact. But you seem to fail to understand that your skill as a player makes up for more than your gear.

[Rayzens-stormscale]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

I know “snip” means you didn’t read it, not that you did and decided to respond simply.

Nah i read all of it, i’ve decided not to respond to it, because i don’t want to waste any more time on your opinions on how I should play the game.

When you’ll pay my subscription, you can tell me how often i can change my selections.

@Thýri-doomhammer

Same thing. Unless you can turn into a bird, go stealth or summon demons with your paladin. Can you ?

I can use whatever is in the game to do that?
Did i say i want that?
Stop trolling, you’re trying to derail the thread.

I’ll reiterate and make it simpler for you in case you didn’t read the OP.
I can do X activities in BFA at my maximum effectiveness within MY CLASS and SPEC.

I CAN’T do X activities in Shadowlands at my maximum effectiveness within MY CLASS and SPEC.

@Thýri-doomhammer

It’s a pretty damn strong argument, in fact. But you seem to fail to understand that your skill as a player makes up for more than your gear.

No it’s not?

You chose a ST conduits, which will make your ST stronger.
You chose an AOE conduit which will make your AOE stronger.

Your skill will not make your AOE stronger with your ST conduit, no matter how much you can pretend you do.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Rayzens-stormscale

Nah i read all of it, i’ve decided not to respond to it, because i don’t want to waste any more time on your opinions on how I should play the game.

When you’ll pay my subscription, you can tell me how often i can change my selections.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

And geese can fly backwards.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Rayzens-stormscale

I CAN’T do X activities in Shadowlands at my maximum effectiveness within MY CLASS and SPEC.

No, but you can do X acitivites in Shadowlands at your maximum effectiveness with MY CLASS and SPEC and COVENANT. And that’s what Covenants set out to be. That’s what they are. They are a 3rd layer on top of those that already existed.

[Clairesse-twisting-nether]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

You think the game’s less fun because you do 3% less damage for a week?

That’s ridiculous.

Oh look you’re talking about numbers again? I’m beginning to think you guys think more about the numbers than I do. It’s not like there are different types of abilities, right? Every ability is just a button with a damage number slapped on it for you. I don’t give a flying panda about doing 3% less damage. I do care a lot however if I have to juggle one dot on one single enemy in a pack of 10 enemies while the other warlock is nuking them with an AoE blood pool and having a blast, all because he chose to join the goth kids.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

I’m not. We’re dealing with timed lockouts. Whether they’re locking out gear conduits is irrelevant. At the end of the day it’s power locked behind “timegates”.

If you can’t see the difference between putting time into getting mutiple gear sets to eventually be able to swap them around on a whim, and having to wait a week to swap to a set and then another week to swap back…

fronk

@Ishayoe-frostmane

I like how you compare losing 3% DPS in M+ but gaining 3% in raids is considered by you to be a “massive turd”.

You’ve really got to stop worrying about DPS meters.

Ahhh… the numbers… it’s all just about the number in your heads… who cares about gameplay anway.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

No, the reason you haven’t thought about it very long is because you can’t spot the parallels.

Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m just a stupid minmaxer who cares about nothing other than doing 1% more DPS because a website told me. I don’t know what fun is and I’ve never played an RPG before. Also hail streamers.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Horrible dirty meta-slaves indeed. You haven’t made any discussion or contribution yourself, you’re just doing whatever you’re told because you’re told it’s optimal, and if the optimal build isn’t within your power to reach for, you just get confused.

So yes, it’s absolutely meta-slavery.

I didn’t even read this before writing the part above this quote and here you go xD

An awful lot of assumption you’re throwing around. I’m just really that bad at the game I guess and need to be told which buttons to press. Oof… you guys are so predictable.

[Rayzens-stormscale]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

No, but you can do X acitivites in Shadowlands at your maximum effectiveness with MY CLASS and SPEC and COVENANT. And that’s what Covenants set out to be. That’s what they are. They are a 3rd layer on top of those that already existed.

Yes, it’s another LAYER we have to check. I don’t like that and many others do not, there is no good reason for it.

Only selfish reasons like your own, restricting others and how they play their game.
Imagine not being able to say NO to using whatever you want to play the game with.
But it’s okay to say NO for everyone else.
Very selfish.

[Emobear-firemaw]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Right, so the game is telling you to make choices and sacrifices to get your character to where you want it to be.

You will find that you can do quite well in all of these activities even if you’re only fully optimal in one of them.

You talk about “The core meaning of vanilla wow”

Stuff like that changes over the years.

Well see how much covenants “Locks” you to one specific content or not, if it does, i will personally quit the game for good, and i know many others will do the same.

Being flexible and able to switch stuff to be efficient in another part of the game is one of the things that have kept me through bfa.

Locking players to specific content is not a smart move. You can defend it all you want, i disagree as do many others.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Clairesse-twisting-nether

Oh look you’re talking about numbers again? I’m beginning to think you guys think more about the numbers than I do. It’s not like there are different types of abilities, right? Every ability is just a button with a damage number slapped on it for you. I don’t give a flying panda about doing 3% less damage. I do care a lot however if I have to juggle one dot on one single enemy in a pack of 10 enemies while the other warlock is nuking them with an AoE blood pool and having a blast, all because he chose to join the goth kids.

I’m just trying to make the point that people think the difference in terms of final output isn’t as big as they think it is, and it’s certainly not intended to be big. They’re certainly trying to make it smaller, that’s what the whole balancing thing is about.

It isn’t perfect, I know. I hope it gets better. But that doesn’t mean the idea is principally poor.

@Clairesse-twisting-nether

If you can’t see the difference between putting time into getting mutiple gear sets to eventually be able to swap them around on a whim, and having to wait a week to swap to a set and then another week to swap back…

I can.

Timegating is about delaying content, not mechanics that delay you from changing your character. It’s like saying the original 30 day cooldown on being able to change character appearance (which no longer exists) was timegating, or that an ability cooldown is timegating because during it you can’t swap a talent.

Again, I don’t think you really know what timegating means.

@Clairesse-twisting-nether

Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m just a stupid minmaxer who cares about nothing other than doing 1% more DPS because a website told me. I don’t know what fun is and I’ve never played an RPG before. Also hail streamers.

You say you’re not in that group, but the argument you’re making implies otherwise.

It’s quite amusing, really.

You think it’s my assumption; but you’re arguing like you really are in that group. Genuinely.

@Rayzens-stormscale

Yes, it’s another LAYER we have to check. I don’t like that and many others do not, there is no good reason for it.

Why not? Because choices are bad in RPG’s?

@Emobear-firemaw

You talk about “The core meaning of vanilla wow”

Stuff like that changes over the years.

Sadly it seems to have, and the game has become worse for it.

[Praetorian-sylvanas (Praetorian)]

@Rayzens-stormscale

Because of Covenants and Conduits locks

Bro entire concept of swaping talents before evry encounter is just wrong and unrealistic, and it kills purpose of talent tree, why not kill entire talent tree than?.. whats purpose of talent tree if you can swap your build to be “perfect” for any PvE and PvP encoutner? It even become tiresome and boring, in PvP when gate opens you immediatly know what enemy use.

I 100% support blizzard in attempt to restore back impact of choices in game, dont yield blizzard this is right stuff !, even lock talent respec like they was locked in vanilla and TBC.

Truth is: Good player know pros and cons of his spec, and know how to play around them, while bad player must be “perfecty” speced for anyhting, or will whine on forum like you do now… amen

[Thýri-doomhammer]

@Rayzens-stormscale

@Thýri-doomhammer

Same thing. Unless you can turn into a bird, go stealth or summon demons with your paladin. Can you ?

I can use whatever is in the game to do that?
Did i say i want that?
Stop trolling, you’re trying to derail the thread.

I’ll reiterate and make it simpler for you in case you didn’t read the OP.
I can do X activities in BFA at my maximum effectiveness within MY CLASS and SPEC.

No, you’re not. You dont use the right trinkets, for example.
Also you haven’t killed N’zoth mythic, nor carapace. So you don’t have access to that 485/490 gear.

Just two examples here. But I can go further and also add that your secondary stats are certainly not perfect either, even though I haven’t checked - mainly because it’s extremely unlikely that you have BiS in every slot.

So, you’re not optimal in BFA.
And that’s my point.

[Rayzens-stormscale]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Why not? Because choices are bad in RPG’s?

You make your choice 1 time when you end up your leveling process with teh covenants locked and then every time if you do a 2 week grind.

I get to make a choice every time i want for what content i want.

I get to make a lot more choices than you… a LOT more.

@Thýri-doomhammer

No, you’re not. You dont use the right trinkets, for example.

Dude, i don’t control what trinkets drop NOW and i won’t control what trinkets drop in Shadowlands.
Your comment here is totally irrelevant.

If you want to make a case for less rng on gear, then go and make your own thread.

@Thýri-doomhammer

Also you haven’t killed N’zoth mythic, nor carapace. So you don’t have access to that 485/490 gear.

Gear argument does not have a stake in this discussion. This isn’t about gear.
Also i killed Carapace… guild died right after.

@Thýri-doomhammer

Just two examples here. But I can go further and also add that your secondary stats are certainly not perfect either, even though I haven’t checked - mainly because it’s extremely unlikely that you have BiS in every slot.

So, you’re not optimal in BFA.
And that’s my point.

Well see? Not everyone uses every BiS list:

1. Because they don’t want 2
2. Because they didn’t get them

Like i said above, gear is not apart of this discussion.
I can be as optimal/effective as i want with what i have.

Shadowlands does not provide me the freedom for choices that i have in BFA.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Rayzens-stormscale

You make your choice 1 time when you end up your leveling process with teh covenants locked and then every time if you do a 2 week grind.

At least you made one.

@Rayzens-stormscale

I get to make a lot more choices than you… a LOT more.

Nah, you “chose” all, which means you chose none at all.

[Amonet-stormrage]

@Popgligor-kazzak

Or struggling to pay for gear repairs? Keeping one gear set for “serious content” and another, blue one, for the world to keep repair costs low?

You know where the difference here is right ? YOU COULD SWAP GEAR. Covenants are ~30% of your trough pu not to mention utility, and thats just the start of the expansion later on the % will go up, right now in BfA we are seeing 200% bonus troughput due to the systems.

@Popgligor-kazzak

I don’t really care what people think of TBC and Wrath, those were awesome expansions. And in them you couldn’t do half the things you CAN do in current WoW.

And you didnt have have the things TO DO. I loved wrath and TBC but essentially it was Raid or Die and PVP.