World of Menucraft

He’s absolutely incorrect, and I’ll explain why since it seems I have to:

In this game, there is an insane amount of variables. Gear, spell variance, RNG, control over lag tolerance, extreme amount of differences between classes/specs, and different ways to play comps.

For example, let’s say you’ve got 2 different RMP teams. One team with 2k exp, and the other with 3k exp.
They’d have fundamental different understandings of how to play vs. different comps. That much is a given, right? Since one is vastly more successful as that comp after all.

But even when you compare two RMP teams both with 2k exp, you’d still see very different ways of playing it sometimes. Variations in how they think it should be played increases with more variations in the comps they face as well.

Then there are differences in opponents similar to that effect, not everyone plays exactly the same after all.

Then you have people not on top rating because in the vast majority of cases, they simply don’t know enough about how to play good enough to win enough to get that far as well. So you have to assume nobody plays without making mistakes as well, especially the lower rated you go.

Mistakes can have different levels of impact on the win chance as well, some are much bigger mistakes than others after all, and some can snowball as well.

People learn how to play differently, and this is not a single player game where rating is only a reflection of your own ability. It’s an approximation of your ability up to that point in time, with the people you’ve played with playing an equally big part in that as well.
But that doesn’t mean that what you’ve done to reach that far in rating was done in exactly the same way even if you’ve played the same comp that far.

So rating doesn’t “remove” the risk of assuming too much. Not even close. Thus conflict would inevitably rise, especially in a game where randoms on a screen caused you to lose something you use to identify yourself with, i.e. your rating. It’s already happening with the garbage group finder, but there you still run the risk of being forced back into it, so there’s still a small awareness of repercussions if you act poorly.

Making it entirely automatic doesn’t help in that regard though. Not even a little bit. It just makes the brain less engaged and you grow more anonymous, thus making you more emotionally hypersensitive which social media research has showed many times over.

This is why psychological hooks into reward schemes, or in layman terms “how they make you chase that carrot”, combined with increased online anonymity, will always cause a huge backlash. And it’s why those other rated solo queue games have had to go so far to combat such problems, and why it’s an industry-wide initiative to deal with it better as game developers.
Which is why more casual-oriented reward schemes are better suited for a rated solo queue environment, especially when you rely less on others by how the game is designed in the gameplay itself.

So why is that the toxicity in random BGs in GW2 is comparable to the toxicity in random BGs in wow… yet in soloq most behave very well?

You have prestige in GW2 aswell. You have titles, icons above your head that indicate your division. Tournament champs get a small rotating crown. Top end ascended gear thats usable outside of the pvp etc.

I don’t think GW2 is more casual than wow tbh especially when it comes to pvp. I also think that some classes in GW2 are vastly more complicated/harder to play than their wow counterparts. A good example is mage vs weaver. GW2 requires a lot more map knowledge, kiting spots, rotational awareness etc.

So no, its not more casual. Different. Harder in some ways…easier in others.

As you said yourself, and as I pointed out, they’re stricter with the policing in gw2. And the way the rewards are relatively easier to get since they’re given out more often helps a lot as well. There’s also no leveling required and no gearing required either, right? Which means less emotional investment and less anticipation, which makes it more bland.

It leads to what you said:

See? It’s less focused on tryharding for the rewards and less emotional investment, together with active policing, which combined leads to more civil social environments.

Why are you still asking things that has already been answered?

I told you, you still have a lot more to answer. Stop going around in circles.

Im specifically looking at the difference between random and rated PvP.

If there is no emotional investment in pvp in GW2 …why are players toxic in random BGs, but they stop being toxic in rated PvP?

Well, are the admins banning people as strictly as you said they do in the rated solo queue?

The two guys i reported got suspended. But lately there hasnt been a need to report anyone.

I had one guy who called me out mid game about a week ago. He apologized at the end of the game tho.

It still doesnt explain why there is a difference between soloq and random BGs. If your assumptions about emotional investment are correct there should be no noticable difference.

Right… I can report someone in WoW for language and once in a blue moon get an in-game mail where they thank me for reporting someone.
That doesn’t really mean the enforcement of the rules is great in WoW, does it?

So how about the big picture? Do people fear repercussions for their “toxicity” in unrated PvP the same way they fear it in rated PvP, in GW2?

Ok, to dispel your misunderstanding yet again, this is what you said you believe I’ve said:

Yet that isn’t what I’ve said.

Every single time I’ve said that it leads to less, not no investment.
And I’ve also made it a point to include the awareness of repercussions, i.e. the active policing. Because together, they harmonize.

I dont think they fear it in either eventho there where some bannwaves in the past.

GW2 feels a bit more social tho. Even in general chat there is a constant stream of discusions going on. As a result the game feels less anonymous and ppl will act out less.

Plus if someone acts poorly others will point out that acting like that will lead to losses. Ppl care less about wins in random BGs so there is more room to act like a … without shooting yourself in the foot rating wise.

That doesn’t answer the essential point of the question though. How actively do they punish people for acting out in unrated PvP? Because you said it quite confidently that they’re swift and harsh with their punishments on people acting like that in rated.

So what’s the shared perception of it in unrated?

Oh? So you agree with the point that more anonymity is bad? I mean there’s research that confirms it many times over, but so you’re even willing to admit that yourself, eh?

The report functions are the same in rated / unrated pvp. The toxicity level seems to be a lot higher tho in unrated pvp. I stated before why…different types of players. goals leads to frustration anger etc.

Yes ofcourse i agree with that.

But Soloq leads to more social interaction and the game feeling less anonymous. And that’s where our opinions differ.

Wow = ppl join LFG to get their cap, or weekly win done. Get it over with and leave again. Since LFG is such a hassle ppl stop playing after that. They dont care about socializing…they just care for the cap and be done with it. Super anonymous.

The only regulars i meet in in wow pvp are RBG boost teams. The vast majority play just for caps. Ive been part of a lot of pvp communities in wow. 6 friends online out of 159 atm. In GW2 its 52 out of 200.

In GW2s soloq u can play rated whenever you feel like it. This leads to more activity and more ppl socializing. Meeting certain good players leads to chat about builds etc. Far less anonymous.

Still doesn’t answer the question.
You see, I already know they don’t deal with people as severely, as often and as swiftly in unrated. Because as you said, it’s more common for “toxicity” in unrated in GW2. It shows they’re not as aware of the possibility of repercussions for their actions, thus shows the admins are not as robust in dealing with such things in unrated.
You repeatedly avoiding to answer the question just shows it further.

The key there lies in motivation for the GW2 admins, they’re more incentivized to enforce the rules in rated than they are in unrated because of needing to protect the reward scheme integrity. If they’d go around punishing everyone even in unrated, then there’d be very few people left playing their game, which is counterproductive for them.

It’s kind of like the violent protests that has been happening around the world for various causes the last couple of years. If law enforcement would go out of their way to imprison every single person that broke a law, then there’d be a massive increase in overcrowding prisons and much fewer people left in society, than if they just “make examples” out of a few people.

They don’t have the freedom to punish everyone, so protecting the reward scheme integrity in rated and ensuring people don’t get a negative view of that more “serious” gameplay mode in the game is obviously higher on their priority list than random unrated queues.
So they “make examples” of people and enforce the rules in rated more than in unrated, thus you see that difference in effect with people.

Right… Sure… “More”… Except every other rated solo queue game says otherwise, except apparently for GW2 according to you.
Silence and anger are overwhelmingly the most usual interactions in solo queues, and it’s completely anonymous. Which is why it’s a huge industry initiative to deal with it, and why such extensive systems are in place to deal with it.

A simple way to demonstrate that is you going up to people randomly and asking them to mention the names of the people they can remember from their solo queue encounters during a day.

You doing it yourself doesn’t demonstrate the effect since you’d then consciously make an effort to remember people for just that day, but ask randoms at the end of the day how many people they remember from their solo queue encounters during that day.

It won’t even be 10% of the people they’ve cycled through. It massively increases anonymity.

???

I repeat:

Not all toxic comments are caused by differences in skill, etc, but a lot are. Solo queues help with that.

You are saying they don’t eliminate conflicts entirely. Correct, they don’t. They reduce conflicts based on differences in skill, etc.

So much for your wall of text. “I’ll explain why since it seems I have to”. ROFL.

You didn’t even understand it, how can you say that?

The point, is that rating isn’t a direct reflection of skill in this game, and the same rating doesn’t reflect the same understanding of the game. It’s just an approximation, as explained in the wall of text you didn’t understand.
So what you’re saying isn’t even realistic. It’s just a fantasy, based on ignorance.

I understood that. It’s just irrelevant. Rating, even though it is just an approximation of skill and even though there are other factors like playstyle, etc, that have a say in teamplay, reduces differences in skill / gear.

You are a phoney, mate. Have fun pumping your chest on the forum pretending you can explain things to others. Your ego is much bigger than the amount of clue you have.

You’re the one arguing different levels of ability is the major cause for conflicts, so how can you say it’s irrelevant when those same differences would still exist?

They will still exist, but they will be significantly reduced. Learn to read, you didn’t do it for three posts now.

This was my last post to you. Bye.

Except they clearly won’t, or you would’ve seen the same effect already. Yet people still mainly rely on exp rather than CR as an indicator of ability.
On top of the reasons already explained in the wall of text you didn’t understand, in how rating isn’t a direct reflection of ability.

You’re funny.

Bye! :wave:

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The answer is quite simple. There is a lot of toxic behaviour that isn’t bannable.

If i played with you in a random BG and called you a beginner or even bad. It wouldnt be bann worthy in wow or GW2. It would still be toxic tho. If i would semi afk, troll around after the first lost fight in a BG it wouldnt be bannable but still toxic. Etc etc.

Now answer my question. Why is that type of toxic behaviour almost non-excistant in soloq… while its very prefalant in random BG?

You have to keep in mind that without activity there is no social interaction at all.

Soloq is basicly content that sits between random pvp and rated pvp. Its better/more social than random pvp yet less social than a full on friendlist/guildmate rated pvp.

The latter is a dying group tho as shown by activity trackers like xunamate. There are a number of reasons for that like the gear treadmill being too much of a factor. So once ppl are geared they start losing interest and it becomes harder and harder to fill up groups. The insane number of boost teams and boosted players is another factor.

A good example is a yesterday. We have a super social group of guys that mostly played together for 11+ years. Yesterday 2 ppl couldn’t come due to personal reasons including our main target caller. The rest gives up on the idea of playing some RBGs since they dont want to spend ages to fill up the group via LFG.

So i felt like playing…but i cant. If i look at discord i see that most of my wow PvP mates play other games now instead.

So what do i do? I logg off and play GW2 instead.

Again with the obsession to compare it to the current system. The current system is garbage. Why do you keep going around in circles? Nobody is saying the group finder is good. Yet you repeatedly keep trying to compare them.

Because of reasons already explained. Even in the post you quoted.

That’s why. The awareness of repercussions is inherently different, as already explained many times over already.

You have to keep in mind that there are big differences between meaningful social interaction and meaningless social interaction. The brain filters away the meaningless ones, and doesn’t even spend resources trying to remember them. That’s what solo queue is full of, and it has a profound effect on behavior and perception.

A simple example to show the difference is using Oribos or SW/OG. You talking to somebody and bond socially over something like transmogs by checking each other out in one of those towns, that’s meaningful social interaction. However, you simply walking past people in one of those towns and not saying a word, that’s meaningless.
Guess which one your brain remembers, and which one gets filtered away without even spending any resources to remember.

Rated solo queue by your wishes would just bring a ton of meaningless social interactions into a rated environment, meaning it’d become a dumpster fire of emotional triggers and outrage and also apathy where nobody says anything at all. Because seasons are long, preparation takes a ton of time investment which increases emotional investment and anticipation, and it takes a damn long time to achieve something. So combine that with that anonymous environment and it’s just asking for trouble.

You thinking it’d be all flowers and sunshine is just unrealistic.

That’s why I said this:

can you 2 already add each other to friend list and /w ingame?

those walls are what Trump only dreams of

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