A new low in M+

Community General Discussion
82

You talk about back track again and again. But you failed to mention what came next.

I told you “I wont argue with that” because starting to talk about the tiny tiny details of RShaman healing vs. RDruid healing is pointless.

YES, if you stack 3/4 modifiers together you can create a massive Chain Heal with High Tide. The issue is that you cant choose WHEN you do it. You get high tide maybe once or twice per boss fight. So you cant “magically heal with 2 buttons”. You have to track mana consuption with high tide and plan your CDs accordingly.

And let me remind you for just a second that you get High Tide when you have consumed roughly 50% of your mana bar. If you go crazy with heals you will get a ton of High Tides for sure, but you will also go OOM when the boss is still at 70% HP… NOT a good strategy.

What you want is to use as few High Tides as possible and be mana efficient with Riptide, Healing Surge and Healing Rain. And have Chain Heal and Ancestral Awakening assist a bit in the AoE department.

Because the funny thing is that with out those modifiers, Chain Heal is absolutely garbage. You need like 12 casts to heal what your 12 dots do. Except that you dont get to cast 12 Chain Heals before going OOM… Unlike you.

You also have PWave as a big AoE heal. But again, you need atleast 5 globals to riptide the whole party. Then you need to fish for modifiers like Ondulation to buff Healing Wave. And THEN maybe you get a mediocre cleave.

You also have Cloudburst totem as a large AoE heal. But you have to charge it. So to do the healing you want, remember that its 40% (if you pick totemic) of what you healed 10s earlier. So its a TON of mana and overhealing to begin with.

So I stand with my assessment of those abilities. You cant just Yolo them and have them on demand. And its 100% not “press 2 buttons and magically heal anything” situation.

It means that this thing that you did, you got your shaman and played him incorrectly. You went OOM after every pack, and the moment you play somewhat difficult keys (8 and above) you will see you dont have the mana, or the HPS to heal through mechanics. Because you are just sitting there expecting Chain Heal to do magic when it wont.

And then… here is the magical part of this whole story: What comes next to your quote…

We had ALL that in DF. What happened ? Why is it that with the SAME buttons we are OP now, but werent OP for 1 whole expansion ? Tell me why !

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83

Ironically, the solution is probably to remove mythic track entirely.

People raiding mythic are in one of two categories either:
a) They are good enough to do it decked out in gear from Heroic Track or;
b) They nerf it by getting mythic gear another way with time.

The current key season basically requires you have to mythic gear to run the keys that reward mythic key, so option b) is disappearing for the players who need it.

The mythic raid is mostly for the achievement and challenge, like running keys above +10 is.

Keys should be rebalanced to be more intune with the heroic raid below 10 so that above 10, people compete for challenge.

So few people actually complete mythic raiding, and the current system will not encourage more people to try it.

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84

Idk, but they seemed to have made tanking all about being perfect, high effort and no reward. And if you don’t have a good healer, it’s going to be miserable.

Ironically I tried healing and it’s less stressful than tanking and you don’t get yelled at for making a tiny mistake.

Also they seemed to have made the rng a lot worse now, opening the chest at the end very often gives nothing.:sob:

Feels like they want people grinding in low keys alot longer and I wonder if it’s because this season will be long.

And there’s just an acceptance that the good statics and few good pugs will be doing 12+.

People would grind if

  • the dungeons were fun
  • And the odds of timing were higher
  • 7+ keys weren’t a sweat fest esport with people sweating their butt off like they’re trying for 1m prize, when actually they get nothing for it.
  • the rewards were worth it

No one wants to watch someone random with a 10k streaming setup, streaming keys to 3 people.

They will watch more “famous” players, but probably only the highest of keys.

Oh and as for “it’s too easy”, well go play the highest keys and keep pushing. Or play Elden ring with a really weak build, idk.

And for the “git good” argument, yeah, I could practice more, learn more. But it doesn’t matter if the rest of your party haven’t either.

Like, keep the sweat out the low keys and just let the best players push the high keys and everyone is happy?

Oh and for “why should bad players get the best gear”, just make the best gear from mythic raid only, or M+15 or something. If people really want the best gear and are bad, they’ll just pay for a carry anyway.

2 Likes
85

I’ve never agreed with this argument, if you are “the best” the game will literally shower you in mythic track options every week from 8 high keys, and 8 mythic bosses, so gear isn’t a concern, and if you are good, you don’t need that gear in the first place.

Gear’s main purpose outside of showing off, is to allow people to complete content they otherwise wouldn’t be able to.

Many guilds use gear to make the raid easier, I remember regularly increasing ilevel requirements in past guilds, to make the raid content easier as people progressed outside the raid.

This sentiment suggests to me that people usually clear the raid because they enjoy raiding, the gear is a side event, as such, there needs to be a route to mythic items, outside of the mythic raid, that is easier than the mythic raid itself.

86

Content has changed sadly, the older player whos been playing since TBC or Wrath, feels now probably that the game isnt good anymore because its evolved into something different, i certainly feel that way, i cant stand M+ anymore, and used to love it, but think thats down to the increased difficulty now on mechanics and the ‘pushy’ attitude on players about performance has drove alot of the player base away from the content as they dont want the aggro of being moaned at.

For me i preferred it when bosses had berserk timers, your top guilds could do it faster with less gear, then down the road more got it with more gear, mechanics were still present and failures could kill someone or wipe the raid on things like a group soak.
But single failures didnt wipe a raid like now.

Had a buzz to it when you downed a boss, while it was berserk and only 2 survived because they bubbled.

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87

The what now?

I’ve been playing since it launched. The major problem I have with TWW is that holy priest is the worst it’s ever been in the recent expansions.

They really need to move away from the Legion class design for them, it’s not working out.

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88

I mean… its sad to hear the state of Holy Priest. But the issues with M+ go beyond that.

You might play an uber meta spec. You still sweat in M+. Dosent change a thing.

And this, as many pointed out (and myself) is a problem.

Correct. And you could be more precise with the wording even. The purpose of gear is to “soft nerf” the content in time so that players have the illusion of progression. So that every week players feel like they are a bit better than the week before.

Yes please ! What I would do is :

Myth track gear in vault back to a +15 like before (a +5 from today). And the 6 tokens you get if you choose nothing in the vault should give you an upgrade from Hero to Myth track gear.

That sounds like a nice compromise to me.

89

I guess that’s the upside of playing a spec that’s so bad that you don’t really push with it. You don’t notice any of the problems when keys go higher.

90

I have written a lot about this. And a dedicated post about it.

Thing is that there is always a spec that sucks. RShaman was in a sad state for a whole expansion until we got our re-work. I an certain that you can do 12s with a Holy Priest.

So I could say “well it went OK for me, so stop whining” but its not the case. Because unlike DF, WW has a massive difficulty spike. And this is a problem that affects everyone. Not just high keys.

Which basically means: If keys are hard, people will look for any edge they can find. Even if its a made-up ridiculous edge. Like meta spec choices or playing with high rio players.

In DF this did not become a problem until you were in the high 20s range. Unlike in WW where you see this in a +5.

91

the plan is to force people back into raiding and raiding guilds

its failing in really spectacular way

its gonna be tought in game design courses in future on how to not design your games :slight_smile:

92

The problem is that Blizzard seems to listen to people at the very high end of play.

Players in Echo might be able to go into Heroic Raids while wearing questing greens, but most of us can’t.

Previous iterations of the game understood by allowing people to get mythic items without downing mythic bosses.

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93

I don’t know if they specifically listen to them and directly apply their feedback.

But it seems like some high end players are in another world, thinking M+ is either somewhat challenging or not hard enough. But then they also don’t pug - they play in a static group where people can execute and coordinate well and know mechanics, so of course, a big element of difficulty is removed.

Imo DF S4 was fine - in content that infinitely scales, I have no issue with the best players pushing the highest keys, but keep the low keys puggable. Unless they just don’t want M+ to be puggable anymore, which would be a really weird choice.

2 Likes
94

Maybe that’s the next step. To just again remove 2-9 and just keep m+ at +10 for mythic raiders only :slight_smile:

That should get job done

95

lol! I think season 2 will need to go back to the drawing board.

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96

For me the best season was S3 of DF. S4 had the problem that we got zero class tuning for the whole duration of the season.

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97

Yeah S3 was really great. S4 was rough at the start but got better quickly and the timers were quite lenient, unlike this season.

I was thinking the other day about the disparity of the timers in this season. Like Grim Batol you can’t really afford more than one wipe on a boss but Dawnbreaker feels really lenient.

98

I am really bummed out with DB. Because the damage profile there is absolutely brutal in high keys. And for now, I am unsure how to address it.

There are really nasty ST nukes. And EVERY SINGLE PACK does this. Bosses included. But they overlap with equally nasty AoE nukes. I just struggle so much to keep people alive in DB +12 and +13.

I need a stupid amount of burst HPS to pull those dungeons off. Much, much, MUCH more that what I ever needed in DF with the “1-shot” meta…

99

People have to use personals and defensives, rotate group cds.

100

I fail to see how to achieve that. Because of the frequency of the damage implies that if someone gets the dot twice in a row (which happens quite often) your in a pickle.

Im sure that there is a way to heal that and I have to L2P basically. But it dosent change the fact that out of all the damage profiles blizz can do, this one specifically is the most annoying and least fun. And they made a whole dungeon about it.

101

I am just accepting it isn’t anymore in the healers hands. Obviously i can always do better, but on those keylevels it is about all kinds of externals which makes it possible. Like on the first pull of DB taking out the ritualist is a big thing, instead of taking out all the other stuff and keep 2 targets with the dot for the full pull.

I do not know you have an aug in your group, but that would definitely help too. I do not have an aug, but so be it. Then no professional keys for me :grin: