Dude is boring either side you choose.
Now youâre confusing the nature of it. Itâs like comparing LFR in retail to the many PUG raids in Classic.
In the PUG raids, many people talk. In LFR, many people donât. You know why?
Itâs partly because of the difficulty of the content in LFR being easy to the point of afking, but itâs also because of social mechanisms like the act of reciprocation and internally accepting each other.
^ This is an example of what the act of acceptance can do. It leads to more implicit trust just from the act of grouping up together, while if the part of grouping up would be automatic then there wouldnât be any of that implicit trust forming because youâve yet to accept each other then.
The fact that youâre also on the same server, even in those PUG raids, means people are more aware of the social aspect than they are in LFR. Because in retail and LFR, you can act as bad as you want and it still wouldnât really impede your ability to do stuff in the game.
But when you behave that bad in Classic with everyone from the same realm, there are actual consequences to it. It will impede your ability to do stuff in the game like that.
So this, and also other things, serves to motivate people on a fundamental level, to work together and be generally constructive. Instead of not caring about anything and being apathetic about it, which dulls the immersion in the content itself.
Doing this repeatedly, seeing the same people over and over again which you can easily remember, leads to effects like these happening naturally:
Compared to the many names youâve already forgotten from the xrealm matchmaking, and never bothered communicating with for the sake of better teamwork.
(Itâs not like Iâm saying youâve never communicated like that in the xrealm matchmaking, but when it occurs it tends to be with only a select few from an entire team of players youâre also playing with, and youâre highly unlikely to have bothered remembering anyone of them if youâve done a lot of BGs anyway.
Not to mention the ones that never reciprocated, or in other words they never said a thing back to you, those youâre even more unlikely to have bothered remembering the names of.)
You can just tell many people have not even tried making or joining a premade.
Majority of games are against other premades. Sometimes you get stomped by hardcore warlord premades, most of the time itâs a good fight against people who want to play.
All of the excuses of âthey just /afk, they use scouts, they only let certain ranks inâ are just hollow. Just try yourself, see how different reality is from fantasy.
1 Like
Even those get stomped by lower rank premades, High rankers from PvE or RP realms are not as good as PvP realm premades.
No offence guys.
Exactly this⊠âWhy 90% of opponent teams are premades?! I wonât look for premades because I wonât support unfair fight!!! REEEEE!!! Pssst⊠Iâm the minority who supports unfair change⊠but donât tell anyone⊠Ok?? Lets REEEE togetherâŠâ :DD
This is the core problem. No side is winning actually. Premades that aim for high ranks have no life and ofc have no fun playing this game. It is like work to them. And rank 13-14 is their pension. But then you are too old and tired to enjoy anything.
I have to agree though, that some of us (me included) are just lazy and unwilling to join a discord channel (I did not know that there were realm channels) or forming out own premade.
But if the reality is like that, what matters is, how many are on âsolo sideâ amd what can be done to change their (our) minds. I proposed removing solo queue and only join as group (5 man) or join as raid options. To force people to be organized.
Hard core premade players, that advise solo players to stop whining because they deserve nothing, and form their own premade, are hypocrites. Because it is not what they want.
4 Likes
Except for the people saying they want it like that, you instead presume them all to be lying.
Yep, that sounds like what a sane person would do.
1 Like
I gonna like your post, because its the shortest you ever made. Well done mate. It doesnât even matter that I disagree with you.
PS: of the 4 premades we met (I played in one last night), one was much better than us and they won easily, the other three AFKed as soon as they realized that they either gonna lose or it will be a long game. For many of them it is pure numbers. Honor per hour and nothing else.
Its a small sample and I will gather more data if I play again.
Even worse, so youâre extrapolating that small sample size by your own admission, to mean the collective will of everyone who tells you to group up yourself.
Also, those premades were really bad if they just âAFKedâ. Theyâre supposed to try to get as many HKs as possible, or else they lose a hell of a lot of honor per hour if that is their regular habit.
This has, in some weird way, turned into identity politics. You identify as part of one group, while the ones arguing against you are people you identify as another group, so therefore you think of what any of those you identify as part of that same opposite group does or says, to be representative of the group as a whole.
Itâs really messed up if you think about it.
I identified (and to you personally) as someone who loves PvP (especially AB) and would love to play with people that are skilled and willing to do their best to win or even dominate. But I couldnât do it because of the family routine. Not only of course. I do my self-criticism. It can be done, but its not easy.
There are thousands if people like me. And they didnât and still donât enjoy PvP. And thatâs purely because of premade vs pugs games.
The other side for me, are people who doesnât want competition (thatâs what PvP is) and enjoy their unfair advantage. Not against the rules, but still unfair.
3 Likes
Empty conjecture, given the prevalence of premades and the large ladder sizes on servers in Classic, Iâd argue there are many giving it their all to PvP regardless.
This shows player engagement. Meaning it still isnât at a breaking point.
So, you claim that it would be better to make the game worse for the people who does play this for the social aspect, which is inherently different from retail, because you, and the people like you, doesnât have time to play BGs as it is now as anything other than solo?
Iâd argue thatâs how you got retail and thatâs what retail already provides as a service.
As for the difficulty of finding premades, Iâll refer you to the other thread where I addressed this specifically:
Read the posts where I brought it up. Iâm not gonna make this into a twitter post for you. Go read.
No, I just want to be able to PvP against people that like me, and donât mind (or want) to play in a pug. Will we deserve less honor points? No problem. Will we be stomped at last GY? I consider it an issue. It looks like many people think the same way.
I am not sure about the numbers (solo vs premade) but unless solo players participate much more in forums (why?), it seems that casual players are the majority.
If it is two distinguished groups, why shouldnât they play separately? Why organized players, donât want to fight ONLY other organized teams? I am not asking if it can be done. I ask why you are against it?
2 Likes
This has already been brought up maaaaaaaaany times, and Iâve gone over the overall effect this would have.
If you want a working solo queue separated from groups, with no negative impact overall on the social design and the reward scheme, then youâd need it to be reduced to the point of not even being noticed. Or just removed entirely. Which includes the reputation rewards. Itâs not just about the honor in Classic, you know?
Iâm not against it per se, Iâm against the separation. Itâs much more feasible and better overall for the social health of the game itself, to just disable queuing as anything less than a full premade.
The only problem with that is the risk of those âChinese Warsong PY teamsâ to become a thing here as well.
But it would get rid of the problem of âpug vs. premadeâ, just in the opposite way. This game was NEVER meant for solo players to succeed in, you know?
Thats a practical issue. If it canât be adressed, then you (all) are right about premade vs premade bracket. I would hate these system exploits.
What you mean "succeedâ? Because we keep dancing between having fun, ranks, gear and social rewarding. Since we are discussing ranked PvP, do you mean obtaining ranks and items?
I mean the reward scheme. To obtain rewards = succeed. And many of the âsolo playersâ donât play for ranks, so itâs not hard for such players to accept reduced or even removed honor from a solo queue separation. The problem is the increased amount of people obtaining reputation rewards, since this would lead to even more players obtaining such things. Which affects the perceived value of those items, and even further trivializes the PvE content since even more players would be getting geared up beyond its difficulty.
Ah yes, but then again, you are that one who doesnât understand ripple effects and believes it to not be such a âmultidimensional issueâ.
So this will probably âfall on deaf earsâ as itâs called.
I have a video link youâd just absolutely love. Itâs full of people who doesnât understand âbig pictureâ things.
Dude, they are just complaining about not being able to casually join a BG and actually play, and not sit in a ghost form the whole time.
And I went to see your posts your referred to in this other thread, and man. Seriously, Trump supporters ? And the way you insult people about being slow and stupid ?
Why so much toxicity, might I ask ?
Canât you see that Prokroustis is probably not a millenial Trump supporter with 70IQ, but more just another fellow gamer who has some reasonable expectations: playing BGs without having to organize and schedule time out for it, nor being stomped as the only other option ?
You speak about certain people bringing identity politics into the discussion, yet you are the one bringing freaking Trump videos to compare them to. Comparing them to someone who thinks Obama was in the oval office during 9 11, I mean dude.
So much for you being the one seeing the other sideâs perspective. I love the empathy you show in your post, I can feel the love deep in my bones 
As. Already. Mentioned.
If they remove the options to queue as anything less than a full premade, it would increase the amount of people creating premades, which means itâd make it much easier to find premades to play with. Itâd even make it easier to create a premade yourself.
Itâs a domino effect. One directly leads to the other.
The reason Iâm linking to that video is because it displays the failure to think, and how there actually exists such people who doesnât understand things. Simple things. And how those kinds of failures can be seen quite often on this particular part of the forum.
We agree. You can completely ignore my posts. No hard feelings.
Who donât.
At the moment, Iâm not talking about game mechanics.
Iâm talking about attitude. So much for pro social behavior.
This is a social interaction in case you didnât consider it as such.
Just respectfully disagree, is it so hard ?
Pulling every people disagreeing with you in one group as âPeople who âdoesnâtâ knowâ how to think, as you say ? Is that respectful, is that pro-social ?
Is that, might I be cheeky enough to ask, Classic community feels ?
Look, obviously there are whiners in the forum that you despise.
You might wanna say âgo to retail!â. The thing is, retail does not have an easy soloQ way of joining BGs either. In fact, ranked PvP is basically only Arenas. Faction balance might be a problem that is right, rewards too low compared to arenas as well.
And yes there is normal BGs, but they are totally reward-free. And ranking as well as being able to quantify your skill level compared to others is basically what PvP is about.
Once again, MOBAS execute on that, why could it not be possible for WoW (which has a much more complex game design) to do the same for BGs, in either retail or Classic ?
I think thatâs why many PvPers went to Classic: because they love BGs and want to gain rewards through BGs, but who are still playing in a casual way (just like, again, many MOBA players are).
I guess weâll just have to cross this desire out. It surely is too hard to implement a working system satisfying both PUGs PVPers and Premades PvPers in a game that costs 13 euros per month, when subscription-free MOBAs do that since 2009.
They do it with rated matchmaking. Which is not compatible with the reward scheme in Classic. Itâs just that simple.
Imagine facing the top of the rated ladder in any of the MOBAs, when you yourself as a âcasual playerâ only play near the bottom of the rated ladder.
This is the difference between the highly random matchmaking of Classic, where everyone can be any kind of skill level, compared to moba games, where they get sorted into their own rating ranges based on how good they are.
Essentially, it keeps the âgoodâ away from the âbadâ. So âbadâ only faces âbadâ, while âgoodâ only faces âgoodâ.
Which the reward schemes in those games are designed for. While Classicâs reward scheme is not.
Classicâs reward scheme is designed for the way it is now, with a mish-mash of premades vs. pugs, and pugs vs. pugs, and everyone can be any kind of skill level facing any kind of skill level.
To mess with the matchmaking messes with the reward scheme, like for example how with xrealm youâve got games running 24/7 with queue times thatâs wildly different from what it was like in Vanilla.
Donât get me wrong, the way queues times are decided isnât really decided by the amount of people per se. Itâs decided by even numbers on both factions queuing at the same time, and if itâs uneven then it affects the queue times making it faster for one while it becomes slower for the other.
This gigantic xrealm however makes it so itâs less volatile, and makes it so you can always get a match at any time of the day or night, while with Vanilla realm sizes and faction splits being uneven on many servers without xrealm matchmaking, it depended a lot on what faction you were and at what time of the day you were queuing as well as what BG you were queuing for (some having it so bad that queue times were âUnavailableâ and you could get a random queue pop several hours after having entered the queue.
Anyhoo, so to mess with the matchmaking in any way changes the frequency of entering the BG, and that in turn messes with the pace of collecting the rewards from the BG which in turn affects how many people acquires the larger rewards like reputation items and when they acquire it. It also changes how much you need to play to place in specific brackets in the ladder and so on.
In fact, if you create an âeasy queueâ (the solo queue) and a âdifficult queueâ (the premade queue) this has immense repercussions on the reward scheme as a whole. Where people get the same rewards (reputation items), despite having had inherently very different challenges in order to get them. Which in turn affects popularity of the different queues.
Which is why you need to reduce the rewards in the âeasy queueâ to the point of meaningless, like they did with skirmish arenas vs. rated arenas, or unrated BGs vs. rated BGs, or you just simply remove the option to queue as anything less than a full premade.
Youâd still get those inherently âunfairâ matchups due to there being no rated matchmaking to separate the bad from the good, but the argument that itâs unfair because itâs pug vs. premade would at least disappear.
The key difference here being that everyone is subjected to the same conditions of matchmaking, so nobody gets an âeasy queueâ for the same rewards while others suffers through a âhard queueâ to get the same stuff.
You canât have it both ways with just honor being higher for the âhard queueâ either, that just negatively impacts the worth of the rep items while making it harder to find ppl to create premades with.
Overall, this follows a game design philosophy that rewards you the more youâre willing to dedicate yourself. This is why people have always said that this reward scheme in Vanilla (and now Classic) never rewarded skill, it only rewarded time.
Which is the whole purpose of the matchmaking as it is today. Except due to the negative social impact of xrealm matchmaking and the way it impacts the underlying motivations to work together, to turn the matchmaking so everyone can only queue up with people from the same server as full premades would help alleviate some of the negative effects the xrealm stuff has.
Solo players will kill classic. Next thing they want is ilvl so they only have to play against bluegear/mc epic teamsâŠ
1 Like