AV situation is unplayable as alliance

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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You are a clueless kid and again you don’t know anything about this game so I know I’m just wasting my time. Check what is arcane power and what is mana ruby, I ain’t your dad so you learn basics from wowhead.

first of all i love how you conveniently ignored my edit where i admitted to mistaking arcane power for evocation, and i know for a fact that you saw that edit and decided to go with your current post unedited anyway.
secondly, you got a point! that’s another button for you to press! gee forgive my ignorance, mister vending machine.

Again, if your guild/group makes you heal, its a fail group, but yeah you are there. Purge what exactly? In MC and BWL there is absolutely nothing except mind control on lucifron to purge.

they don’t “make” me heal, i clutch heal if the tank/healers screw up on range or LoS since i am always close to the tanks, being a melee shaman. saved our raids from wipes more than once… can your frostbolts do that? i don’t think so.
and purge is an offensive dispel, not friendly, so no, i don’t “Purge” lucifron’s mind control… seems like you’re a bit of a noob who knows nothing about this game yourself huh?..

oh, and there’s a lot of mobs and bosses that have dispellable buffs, i thought you, being the pro that you are, with all your private server experience, would know this to be the case, but to quote yourself; “i ain’t your daddy, go figure it out yourself” (obviously paraphrasing idgaf)

Again, I have 11 spells used

like what… keep it single target (boss fights)

you have 8. You can’t parse 99+ spamming frostbolt, that is for baddies like yourself. If you were playing a mage you would be spamming fb all day and do f all dps as you currently do.

baddies like me don’t play ez iwin button classes like mage, bruh… and again, i use at least twice as many spells as you do, cooldown(s), rotation and totems included, there’s not even a debate to be had here.

I didn’t say it will, I just tried a pserver before classic’s launch to see what is good. And fire mage was good, challenging and top-notch so I rolled a mage.
Again you are hallucinating boy.

good for you, still 1 button rotation class though. maybe this will (slightly) change once AQ comes out and you can go fire spec, but so far you are nothing but a frostbolt turret to me and a lot of other people.

I play the equally boring and easy class as any other currently and not rewarding all that good first 4 phases. (frost mage)
I also play the most enjoyable and complicated class after phase 5 which will also be super rewarding (fire mage)

give me a break, there is exactly one class in this game that can do +150 mob pulls and make ez money, and its not shaman, paladin, warrior, rogue, hunter, druid, priest or warlock.

My frostbolt damage overall on that raid is 52.54%. Once again you have no clue about the game.

whats the other 48.46% if you don’t mind me asking? arcane explosion? blizzard?.. pretty sure we’re not talking about clearing trash packs here man, we’re talking about bosses.

And once again, you are clueless. All mages in the raid except 1 goes 31 arcane - 20 frost for pve spec. We are actually playing arcane spec with frost talents.

i suppose you are the one who refused to spec winterchill and made some other poor sod do it because the thought of dropping in dps bothered you too much then.

You have no idea about the game, all you do is hurr durr I can oneshot you hurr durr.
You can’t boy, you and your ret pala friends think you are so amazing when once in 10 years you get a 2k damage with a proc. Try other classes and see how easy yours is and how better others are, I wasted so much time with this nonsense it’s unreal.

bruh i regularly WF crit for about 4-5k during raids. in pvp i literally one-shot people so easily i often get top killing blows, which in turn makes all the alliance team focus on getting me out of the way before they even think about killing anyone else, which is good fun when there’s a healer on my team that recognizes it and pockets me, resulting in alliance flailing around like headless chickens, not knowing what to do while they drop one by one.
bruh i literally have 157 confirmed kills and im a navy seals special agent, i even oneshot warriors if they don’t use a shield… and that’s with blue pieces of s*** gear like truestrike shoulders and devilsaur set.

you have no idea how much my character is about to improve with the release of AQ… you think your fire spec is hot s*** ?? oh just you wait.
see you in AB, and you better keep your distance if you value your life :wink:
but then again, that shouldn’t be hard since you guys usually spend the game standing around ST or GM bickering about how you can’t get 3 nodes :smiley:

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To be fair Alliance has paladins to give them the huge advantage in numbers. Horde has its racials to make up for it mostly in small skirmishes.

Av is number based but alliance cant premade in there so thats why they lose not cause of map.

Looking forward to TBC when we happen to get paladins :slight_smile:

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That is just your experience which is doubtful while I have similar experience Vs horde pugs on Allience even usually beat them to the point they don’t even have 1 kill to their name but that doesn’t change the fact that overall the win rates are closer to 50% overall in pug Vs pug and only in l ab/wsg as AV map is far in favour of the horde which has been discussed many times

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And once again, sheer ignorance and stupidity, uhuh bro you use so many buttons and you are amazing with your 65 parse doing 76% white auto attack damage. (270 dps btw pepehands)

Yeah dud I felt like you exactly when I was 9, you do much damage and such damage yeah. There is no rational way to convince you otherwise until you come to your mid 20s and realize the truth about yourself.

Hurr durr keep your distance i kewl you with my 65 parse hurr durr :smiley:

Trash packs take a lot more time than bosses actually and are more important for speed clears but even if we say only bosses, we use AE on nefarian, change our rotation on chrommaggus according to his vulnerability so its frostbolt-arcane missiles-fireball-scorch-fireblast, we use detect magic every min to keep it up on the boss, we use aoe in a lot of boss fights like lucifron/gehennas/majordomo/sulfuron/razorgore/nefarian and that means blizzard+arcane explosion, we use cone of cold on cd on golemagg, we decurse on lucifron/chrommaggus, i ain’t decursing on shazzrah anymore cuz it dies in 13 seconds. Also if you aren’t an idiot mage you want to blink ragnaros’ surge and geddon’s bomb etc.

As you see, as easy as it gets, mage uses other spells even currently, but will get a lot more complicated after AQ because all mages need to coordinate.
Classic is an easy game overall and we play the easiest version of it, welcome to earth.

245

The map issue is horde favored but most loses are not due to map favoritism.
From personal experience leading pug AVs. There is usually 2 indicators that show me that game is lost, which happen quite often:

  1. They either don’t read the strategy or just don’t want to follow
  2. Even if they do follow for the start as soon as they die, they are either AFK on the GY or randomly going to our base(could be bots, could be just ppl not bothering)
    Generally if those two don’t happen, which you can tell if they do after the first 5 mins, usually the game turns into a WIN or at least a very even/close game. I’ve lost so many games where we were pulling Drek and horde were just a step ahead of us and killed Van.

So over all imo alliance get your S*** together.

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I’ve played five games today and lost two of them. Alliance can win they just need to use a good strategy instead of going into sheep mode.

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Just keep it consistent: Keep the map and the queue both classic-like or tweak both. Tweaking one just seems like favoritism

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248

Aight let’s remove Horde’s choke point but keep Alliance’s choke point in the game.
Let’s move Alliance’s cave spawn since it’s right above Stormpike Graveyard and accessible in about 15-20 seconds but keep Horde’s cave spawn where it is, 20 second from a choke point and another graveyard.

While we’re at it. Why not give alliance a permanent 20% dmg and healing increase to make the fights more in favor of the Alliance.

What AV changes btw? The one that changed so you can only queue as a 5-man party? We all know how well that went now that alliance players are using discord and other programs to queue up as a 40-man premade, effectively bypassing Blizzard’s regulation…

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I would class myself as the average player, no where near as good as some, but definately smarter than some you see. I haven’t played as Horde in AV, but I did play as alliance in vanilla.

I dont think you can single out a specific reason why alliance keep losing AV, it is a combination of multiple things. Map, skill, queue times, leechers.

Starting with the map, I think the map in general is in favour of the alliance, It is alot easier for alliance to defend SP than horde can defend FW. Its easier for alliance to cap towers than horde capping bunkers. Lets have a hypothetical situation of 40 alliance at a controlled IBGY. They can keep the horde down south just as easy as 40 horde at SH can keep alliance up north. The 40 alliance will find it easier to progress to the boss from IB than the horde can from SH due to the choke at SP and the vast open space at FW.

However, it is slightly harder for the alliance to cap IB than the horde to cap SH. This is down to two reasons. Horde can attack SH from two flanks, the south and from SF side. Alliance can only cap IB by going through a similar choke to what alliance have at SP. I see people mentioning tower guards, yes alliance will take some hits from them, but the damage is not raid wiping and can easily be healed. If one person can run from SH > IB and not die then 40 definately can too. But the horde cave location is 100% an advantage to the horde. In an ideal world it should take the horde the exact same time to reach SH from their cave as it does alliance IB from theirs. Both sides should also reach SF at the same time. The fact that horde can get to SF and can get closer to SH than alliance can to IB offers a slight advantage right from the start. I believe the current meta for alliance is to wipe the horde at SH and then move to IB. This effectively swaps the initial advantage the horde has, alliance are now closer to IB than horde are to SH. If horde win that initial fight, it pretty much means game over for alliance. However in my experience, alliance usually win that fight. This proves to some degree that its not horde skill or racials causing the landslide win % we see. It is what happens after that initial fight that determines the outcome of the game. So as its after that fight, although the horde cave is an advantage, horde starting closer can’t be the main reason for their win %. The biggest and main issue with the map is the fact that horde spawn at the cave when killed near IB. Like has been mentioned, the fact you can respawn closer and in higher numbers gives you a massive advantage over the alliance compared to us defending SH. I don’t know exactly how the game decides what gy to send you to, I presume its based on proximity. But a very simple solution to this would be that both sides can only respawn in their caves if no other gy’s are owned by that team. So if a horde dies near IB, they respawn at FW instead. Im not sure if FW is further from IB than SP is from SH or not, if it is further then it would give the alliance too much of an advantage. So perhaps another alternative is to have GY and caves respawn the same number of players, perhaps increase gy from 10 to 15, and cave down to 15. Im pretty certain it would be quite easy to apply either of the above changes to the respawns. And would then nullify any arguments for map changes.

Moving onto player skill / racials. I think you can argue all night on this topic. I would say on average horde are slightly better skilled, based on pure numbers alone, but individually there is no difference. As for racial abilities, in my opinion horde do have a slight advantage, but its definately not a game winning advantage, I would say in 1vs1 fights it might help decide the outcome, but in larger fights it has less of an impact. You could possibly argue that shamans are better than paladins, both have their uses, but overall I don’t think it can account for a change in the win %. From my point of view, shamans are the class i fear the most in pvp, they just seem to flatten me everytime! Overall I would say skill / racials are slightly in favor of horde, but should only push win % up by a small number, not the huge gap we have.

Queue times – whats more to say on this, horde more inclined to win due to the wait. Might push win % up by 10% or so, who really knows.

Leechers/ afk’ers – This is by far the biggest reason alliance lose, or at least why alliance get stuck in the turtle situation. I can’t speak for everyone on the alliance, but I always report players afk when i see them (usually have a look while waiting to be ressed), however nothing seems to happen to them. I used to post in chat to get others to report too, but now it usually leads to a flame war in chat and just distracts the rest of the group. The issue we have as alliance is that after the initial fight at SH everything tends to go down the pan. From that point it just spirals into a depressing slog until horde eventually kill vanessa, which is neither fun or rewarding. Once you get a few people afk, its even harder to win, so more people go afk, and so on and so on.

I can’t think of a way to solve the problem of leechers without majorly changing how AV works, or alliance just winning more will do it, but you need to get rid of them before that will happen.

Alot of alliance give up once the zerg to IB fails, in my opinion that is the wrong play to make that early in the game anyway. But, the alliance are more than capable of winning in AV, but at the moment it requires all the stars to align!

To conclude, i believe the real reason alliance can’t win in AV was initially down to the horde’s respawn rate at IBGY giving them a huge advantage making it extremely hard to progress beyond SH (but not impossible), and now the reason is primarily down to the leechers, lack of focus/drive and not following instruction. You can’t fix the later without sorting the first issue out.

Any thoughts?

250

There is some truths to what your saying but even if the cave was fixed the travel time for reinforcements is like 45 seconds extra travel time for Allience so they are still at a disadvantage when trying to retake a lost Gy. While it’s true Allience can take SF back easier than the horde it is true but doesn’t really give Allience an advantage as the distance to the horde Gy are about same as SHGY was in first place.

Map is clearly the main problem for the landslide loses while afkers and rankers giving up does contribute to the loss but there is not as many afkers until shgy is lost. I have seen whole teams try to defend ibgy after capping and I have seen horde botters/afkers as well.

The arguement saying we can keep them south as much as they can keep us north is not equal as the high ground horde have and how far you have to push past them to recap is alot better than ibgy since there is 2 ways past ibgy the choke and the Gy itself also fact it’s alot than the choke at bunker and easier to get to the Gy flag

You are right racials have a minimal impact in such large zergs. Another reason which is say is a big reason for alot of losses is Allience solo rankers don’t want to defend they just want quicker hph good luck trying to get them to defend or trinket back for recaps we could defend shgy as much as horde do and play the long game but good luck with that

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defeatism can’t be cured with map changes, hence you would still lose every AV even if horde had their cave pushed into the back of their base, period.

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252

I wonder is it unplayable just because alliance loses more games? I mean the h/h and rep/h is quite same for both factions atm for EU and much better for NA&OSE alliance than for horde on those regions.

Back when the alliance premaded, hordies still queued enough to make alliances queues very short even the horde lost much.

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I never said the cave should be moved. I merely said it could be an option to only be used if horde don’t own any other graveyards. Likewise with the alliance base, when horde kill us at SP, we should be sent to aid station not cave.

Im more than happy to lose every game if it felt like we actually had a decent chance to win. At the moment its like ramming your head into a wall, and thats even with players listening and following instruction.

The silly thing is, even if the win rate was 60/40 or even 70/30 in favor of horde, instead of the 90+ we currently have, more alliance would play, reducing horde queue times, meaning horde would also benefit from a change to AV, and even with the odd loss here and there still gain more marks/honor/rep than you do currently.

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The only thing that makes AV “unplayable” for the alliance is the large number of afkers. That includes just about every rogue and druid, and the occational Night Elf who are stealth leeching HK’s at the outskirts of stoneheart graveyard at the beginning and stormpike graveyard after sh is lost. In addition there are ofcourse a few people sitting there in plain sight on their mounts aswell.

We need significantly harsher, and possibly more frequent, punishments for afkers. 7 days suspension for first offense clearly isn’t anywhere near deferring people from doing it.

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255

One major problem is the morale on alliance side. Getting farmed like this really puts you on the bottom of the lake. Low morale makes sure players gives up after a few deaths. And after that the normal “OMG STOP FIGHTING,LETS LOOSE FAST” whine start.

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That’s just the effect of the unbalance. Your suggestion would improve the situation, but it wouldn’t deal with the root cause of the problem. What you suggest is just the treatment of the symptoms.

Those people are afk, because there is no way to win and to have fun and they need reputation.

It’s just no fun to get intercepted at the start of the game at your own side of the map, because horde spawn is so near the middle. As well it’s no fun to get camped at the Stonehearth deathtrap.

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I do agree, but a map change then opens up a big can of worms, do they also change the LoS issues while they are at it? A simple scripting change of what graveyard is used is more viable and more likely to be universally agreed upon.

Just curious, has blizz commented on the situation at all? I haven’t seen any blue posts but I haven’t searched through every AV post.

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That’s a common lie used by afkers. Alliance wins does happen even with the current leeching meta, although very rarely against non russians. If there wasn’t 15+ (semi)afkers in every game that win rate would get higher. The simple truth is, it gives the best reward/effort put into the game. Among many classic players that is all that matters, and for some it’s the only way they can realistically reach rank 10. It’s not just people who needs rep, it’s loads of people who are doing it for honor aswell. For alliance players not doing premades the honor from hk’s in av makes up a very significant part of your honor/hour. The best way to make sure you get that honor is to make sure you don’t die.

When the alliance rogues in av have a lower average number of killing blows than the paladins, the average number of deaths are lower than hunters and healers while the same rogues have the highest number of hk’s it’s pretty obvious that it’s their attitude/behaviour that is the problem, not the design of the bg. Sure, doing av for several hours per day can get dull, I get that. But that should never be accepted as an excuse to ruin the game for other players. If you don’t enjoy the bg, and don’t want to participate in bg activities, don’t join.

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let me tell you how most bgs on alliance side start. “TURN IN REP ITEMS” -> turtle 1h+ -> 25 leeches in stealth or shadowmeld -> lost.

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Its the alliance players fault.
Defeatist repfarming attitudes.
Match starts, people make jokes about how they gonna run in circles and lose
SO people just fart about solo killing till they lose because they feel they are in a losing team anyway.

HORDE roll in with an attitude to win, and often do.
Map differences? meh, each side has a different ideal tactic.
Decent alliance teams win in 8 mins, absoloute thrashing, cant blame for the map when that happens

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