So no then, you have not played Classic AV as Horde. That means that I know more about this topic than you do.
I have a lvl 60 Alliance and 2 lvl 60 Horde exalted in AV. I have also played both alliance and horde in many different versions on AV on private servers.
I can, based on my personal experience, inform you that Alliance have an advantage over horde in AV, as a whole.
This is my opinion. Based on personal experiences of playing both sides for years.
So why does Alliance lose so much? Itâs because Alliance puggers in AV mostly care about rep and are not motivated after an instant queue. They have many afk leechers. While Horde are VERY motivated to WIN, and donât mind a long game after a long queue and are generally more pvp focused and care less about rep and more about honor points.
On my last private servers, alliance was winning a lot of AV. They also had a long queue. What a coincident, huh?
Look. Iâve gone from neutral to Exalted AV with 95% of the games being pugs (I remember only 6 cases of me joining an AV premade group back when it was possible). I say this because Iâm going to talk about what youâre proposing with experience.
Even if done this way, it doesnât work.
When alliance ârushesâ Iceblood, around 25-30 people usually get there. Even if we all stack in the flag zone, horde ends up winning the fights. Why? Because of the map layout.
Alliance capping Iceblood doesnât cause as much harm to the hordeâs strategy as taking horde taking HS does to allianceâs:
The distance from cave to IB is shorter than the distance to Stormpike to Hearthstone. â Reinfocements get there faster.
Path to iceblood is guarded by horde NPCs in Iceblood tower (if some alliance go clear the NPCs, it means less people going graveyard), so after the group has passed, it becomes a trap. Therefore, if alliance has to guard the back, we have to go through the graveyard, meaning that âwe canât go backâ because the path is a trap.
So those 10 horde that spawn in cave because they died will eventually end up winning just because of allianceâs weathering.
Even if alliance dismounts and wipes the horde, the same will happen eventually, because Icebloodâs a trap. Will only move the initial choke point from Hearthstone to Iceblood, but once itâs a 40v40 in Iceblood, horde will end up winning the push for the reasons mentioned above.
All these theories and strategies have been tried multiple times without success.
Again, I listed objective advantages not some biased stuff from a playerâs point of view. If you canât get the difference in value then you will never be able to discern the reality of facts.
Yeah the Allience riders trying to out run is inexcusable but thankfully it doesnât happen every game.
At the start some games we do send everyone in a deathball towards IBgy and capture it but it leaves shgy undefended horde just cap that first then backtrack to take ibgy with about 10-20 constantly grouping up and kamakazi into us they just respawn all at once I cave and get to us so fast healers cannot even drink mana eventually we lose people who now spawn in stormpike Gy with no chance to reinforce ibgy and lose the base most times and from then itâs a loss.
Some games we do manage to defend long enough to cap it not often thatâs our chance to win but if horde play defensive while sending in few as 10 to backdoor cap everything and solo pull van we lose by time we push all the way south there is a problem with Allience is not many recall when we need it I guess itâs the fear of being stuck north of the SH bunker choke.
For life of me as well I canât seem to get the wing commander to our base always gets killed at shgy choke Iâve saw him make it one time while in games we are stuck at stormpike I always see the horde equivalent make it and face those damn bats
Its not quite true tho is it? They did move the starting cave back in tbc and the alliance win rate did dramatically increase, so its not about defeatism. I would perfectly accept a 80-20% win loss rate given the superiority of horde racials and the fact that pvp oriented players tend to play horde. But 99%? Do you seriously think horde is that much better? Really? You cant be that deluded. Not to mention that most people have both ally and horde characters so its the same players losing on the ally side as winning on the horde side.
What do YOU want with keeping claiming that AV is Alliance favored? I wouldnât even had start this cyclical discussion if it wasnât for you claiming stuff without any base.
Is the map in favor of horde? Yes. Admitted.
Has blizzard acted to mess up Alliance organization? Yes.
Conclusion: Alliance has advantage over horde. ???
Arguments backing up the statement: âSo what?â. In other words, none.
This statement just proves youâre a big liar:
First of all, if alliance cared about rep, theyâd aim to win. A win awards like 3-4 times the amount of rep a loss does. And a win is faster than losing 3 or 4 times (horde take their time to maximize honor gain in AV).
Second: if you actually had an alliance player and vothered to read the chat, youâd know that people actually aim for honor, which really is what causes people to not be interested in trying a victory. A fast loss awards more honor per hour than trying to win, since the amount of time to try to win or get the extra honor towers and drek give is lower.
To max honor as alliance in AV, the strategy is âlet horde get turrets and win, and meanwhile letâs kill LTsâ. Minimum time spent on AV and almost maximum honor gained.
And this happens because allianceâs queue times are 2-5 minutes, so in the time an horde wins 1 bg (which might be 40min queue + 15 min bg), an alliance can lose 2-3 bgs.
Yes you do? You are in favor of what you call âfixingâ the queue system with a lie. A change, because itâs not a fix, that has caused the queue system to not be vanilla-like.
What I want and that claim are two seperate things.
I want Classic to not implement changes.
I also happen to believe and have the opinion that AV is Alliance favoured. But that irrelevant. Iâm just discussing with you. I can engage in various discussions, thatâs what a forum is for.
I 100% agree that the reason Horde win more is because of the players. But I donât see how 5 man groups that alliance also can do have any affect on that, as a whole. fact is, Horde generally donât organize much in chat or anything like that. You doât really need that when you have 35ish motivated players fighting 15ish motivated Alliance.
I have already said, for the sake of argument, you are right and I am wrong. Horde have an advantage in AV. I grant you this, you have won, you have changed my mind, I now agree with you.
It would be nice to have Blizzard revert their change (what you call hotfix) in queues so that we all have a 1.12 recreation of the game, even if it means having horde lose the games because they canât coordinate themselves even if itâs possible, instead of shamelessly help one faction by modifing one part and ignoring the other.
I donât agree with that Iâd rather it be balanced or closer to 50% win rate for both factions. One way to fix would be moving the horde base Futher back or moving the Allience base closer to shgy. Change shgy so itâs similar to ibgy since the choke is just too strong I know these changes are huge and easier way would to revert to an older version of alterac valley that makes games much longer with the trolls in field of strife and more Guards and commanders which respawn etc
Ok, why donât you make a thread about that? Itâs a discussion you need to have with the alliance puggers that now would suffer even more in AV when premades dodge queues and leave them alone.
Yes that is what will happen with alliance puggers again. They enter AV and 35 aliance players leave when they didnât get the full premade in and just take the next one with instant queue over and over opening many AVs with very few Alliance puggers vs 40 horde.
The weird thing here is that you believe Blizzard helped the Horde, when they in fact helped Alliance puggers.
Of course. But changing the map would go against the policy of ârecreatingâ the experience.
Thatâs part of the whole discussion here. The 1.12 map is in favor of the horde. Alliance, in classic, found a way to âpremadeâ the bgs. Blizzard modified the queue dialog to break that.
Therefore, there was a modification of the 1.12 recreation (what ppl were doing in 2019 and 2020 was possible to do in 2006, just noone bothered/cared/thought about it) because it was causing a result that noone liked (Alliance winning like 80% of the games). After the change, the result is on the opposite (90% Horde win ratio), in great part due to the map.
So, either we modify the map and break the ârecreation thingâ (which I think most of classic donât like, honestly), or we revert the queue modification to get back the ârecreationâ intent, alliance organizes and starts winning again and, hopefully for your interests, horde will start doing the same and the balance will be brought together.
You as an alliance player must see all the Alliance afk leechers? Donât you see them? I see them on my Horde evenâŚ
Horde are motivated and have very few leechers. Alliance have instant queue and are not motivated and have many leechers. Thatâs why the lose. Itâs not because of the map.
When Blizzard banned a lot of afk leechers, suddenly Alliance started to win a lotâŚ
For all that is holy⌠âfor the sake of argumentââŚ
You know what, this is a free world (almost) if you want to be the flatearthen of the forums denying actual facts because you have your own view, please be my guest.
Itâs pretty clear that youâve been disproved time over time and the argument is over.